Unnamed beaten woman in The War Cry: Mary Kelly?

[Natasha]

Hi MayBea,

That's another possibility. Someone pulled the woman's hair down so it could have started as a 'cat-fight'.

We know Mary was a fighter, according to her 'pal' in Millers Court.

"Though quarrelsome, Mary Jane was pretty before she was cut up, Mary said, and she was only twenty four, not thirty, as she looked; but she would fight, and did not care what sort of a place she lived in....
"Someone was always drunk and yelling in Miller court, and she [Kate, the red haired girl] rightly guessed that a woman being beaten would make as much noise as one cut up, so that the murder would not be noticed.

Syracuse Herald
New York, USA
11 November 1888

Interesting quote. I think that Kelly would most definitely put up a fight, if the Black Mary story is anything to go by. She had abrasions on the back of her hand, so to some extent tried to perhaps cover her throat. There was also bruising on the neck perhaps she woke up from having been strangled and tried to defend herself.

I think you mean to write so that the murder would be noticed or was the quote as exactly as written? If it's the latter, could it be possible that if it wasn't Kelly, do you think it was someone else? Perhaps Kelly's singing was the distraction as the murder took place?

My wish was that the other woman might turn out to be the woman named Louisa whom Barnett ended up with and we might be able to identify her.

They later claimed they'd been married since 1888. If that's true, then there must have been a close, prior relationship, which doesn't fit with the common perception of Joe.

Do you view Barnett as some people do - as a virtual saint Joseph?

If he and Louisa were married in 1888, would Louisa be happy about Barnett seeing Kelly? My bet would be no. If Louisa found out this could be the reason for the cat fight. Perhaps he was paying Kelly to keep quiet about the relationship. I feel though that there wasn't much of a relationship going on with Kelly. Barnett went to stay with his sister, why didn't they both, Kelly n Barnett, live with his sister in the first place, when they could no longer pay the rent?
Unless he was indeed married to Louisa at the time. Here's another thought, what if Kelly was Louisa? The different descriptions given of Kelly makes me wonder this. Barnett said Kelly was in the habit of letting women stay the night. I can't think how, why the murder was perpetrated, but it's worth looking at all the possibilities.

As to Saint Joe: I'm sure I read somewhere he was a bit of a rough geezer. I don't think you would've got very far in the east end without an aggressive streak.

Thinking about it sounds strange that everything Barnett has said about Kelly seems to be a load of crap (seeing as no one has been able to substantiate what Barnett said). I don't think Kelly would make up info about her background, it's not like people back then had ready access to information about people like nowadays. So I can't see why she would lie. I would understand her lying about her name to the police etc, but not to people she was friends with. I think Barnett was lying about her life. What was he hiding? I have always said that something didn't add up with Barnett.

The grave spitting tale: Do you believe that?

[MayBea]

Captain Walker befriended Mary Jane Kelly "recently" prior to her death therefore, in all probability, October.

How many unfortunate women do you think befriended the slum captain every month? To the point they were praying together at the SA place? One or two.

How many that fit Kelly's description who was quarreling in a court near Angel Alley with a husband/boyfriend with another woman involved? Probably one.

To say that this isn't Mary Kelly because Joe Barnett couldn't have been abusive even when drunk is the real far-out speculation.

Speculation is only speculation until it proves fruitful as my previous speculation has proven regarding the Salvation Army.

[miss marple]

It is speculation. The unnamed woman could be one of a hundred or more women who were victims of domestic abuse in the East End. Something the sally army would have seen frequently. Long hair was the norm for most women in the 19th century.
Kelly was not married and from what we know of Barnett it does not seem probable that he would behave in that fashion.
You can speculate endlessly, but we have to make a judgement on what is known, not change the story to fit a speculation, so that people start deciding which woman was with the unknown man, so that a speculation becomes part of the official story.
No one is saying that Joe was perfect. He seemed to be just an ordinary bloke
who loved a woman, lost his job, wanted to keep her from the streets. They got drunk sometimes, but he is not described by anyone as violent. He kept an eye on her after he left,but that was not enough.

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

My wish was that the other woman might turn out to be the woman named Louisa whom Barnett ended up with and we might be able to identify her.

They later claimed they'd been married since 1888. If that's true, then there must have been a close, prior relationship, which doesn't fit with the common perception of Joe.

Do you view Barnett as some people do - as a virtual saint Joseph?

[MayBea]

That's another possibility. Someone pulled the woman's hair down so it could have started as a 'cat-fight'.

We know Mary was a fighter, according to her 'pal' in Millers Court.

"Though quarrelsome, Mary Jane was pretty before she was cut up, Mary said, and she was only twenty four, not thirty, as she looked; but she would fight, and did not care what sort of a place she lived in....
"Someone was always drunk and yelling in Miller court, and she [Kate, the red haired girl] rightly guessed that a woman being beaten would make as much noise as one cut up, so that the murder would not be noticed.

Syracuse Herald
New York, USA
11 November 1888

[Natasha]

Hi MayBea,

What if it wasn't Kelly who was attacked but rather that she had attacked someone else? Remember the story of Kelly being known as Black Mary

I know the article said 'Kelly' was attacked over drink money, but people in the east end never really opened their mouth's to anyone if it meant they would then be classed as a grass.

I have been thinking lately that Kelly may have been letting other women use her room for prostitution, in return for a cut of money earned by these women. If that is true and doesn't sound nuts, could this have been the reason for the attack on the woman? Perhaps the woman didn't give any money to Kelly? Also could this have caused the argument between Barnett and Kelly?

[Natasha]

I think it could be 'Julia', Maria Harvey, or Lizzie Albrook. It could have been an argument about having women sleep in their room so it would depend who was sleeping there that night.

Although the 'victim' said she was beaten by her husband and another woman, it doesn't mean that's what actually happened. But I don't find it hard to believe.

Julia, for one, was a drinking partner of a 'Dan' who is probably Daniel Barnett. And Mary met with them at the Horn of Plenty the night she was murdered.

Hi MayBea

That makes sense

[MayBea]

I wonder if it was Kelly who was attacked, then who was friends with the female attacker, Kelly or Barnett. Or perhaps it was Barnett's sister.

I think it could be 'Julia', Maria Harvey, or Lizzie Albrook. It could have been an argument about having women sleep in their room so it would depend who was sleeping there that night.

Although the 'victim' said she was beaten by her husband and another woman, it doesn't mean that's what actually happened. But I don't find it hard to believe.

Julia, for one, was a drinking partner of a 'Dan' who is probably Daniel Barnett. And Mary met with them at the Horn of Plenty the night she was murdered.

[MayBea]

You're right, Garry.

The 'broken window' incident happened on October 30th, according to more than one witness, and the incident in The War Cry happened around October 13.

However, Mary and Joe were quarreling the whole month of October, and the description of the woman plus the fact that Staff-Captain James J Cooke puts Mary Kelly with Captain Walker on a Sunday morning just prior to her death, therefore October probably, makes this beaten woman to be more than possibly Kelly.

[Garry Wroe]

This incident took place at least three weeks before the Miller's Court murder. Kelly's window was broken ten days before her death. On the face of it, therefore, the two episodes are clearly unrelated.

[Natasha]

Hi MayBea

Interesting find!

It would be interesting to find out who the other woman was, who attacked 'Kelly'.

I wonder if it was Kelly who was attacked, then who was friends with the female attacker, Kelly or Barnett. Or perhaps it was Barnett's sister.

[MayBea]

Thank you, GUT.

Captain W finds her in a court which she says is nearby and they are in Angel Alley next to George's Yard.

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Angel_Alley

The policemen had just been there so it happened there in the court. I'm thinking this could be the "broken window" incident.

[GUT]

Now that's interesting.

[MayBea]

I found an interview with SA Captain W__, presumably Captain Walker, who knew Mary Kelly according to Staff-Captain James J Cooke (WC Dec. 13, 1888), where she tells of a woman who resembles Mary Jane Kelly.

"The other day I came on a woman, her hair down and all bruised, in a court near us. Her husband had come home drunk, and he and some woman had set on her just because she wouldn't come and spend her money drinking with them. She's a woman tries to keep herself a bit decent. The policeman had just been around and stopped them. I helped her fasten up her hair."

Captain W__ (Captain Walker?)

The War Cry, 13 October, 1888; 'Within the Circle of the Whitechapel Murders', S.F. Swift (Courtesy of The Salvation Army International Heritage Centre)
Snippet image below with snippet Cooke's Dec. 1 article