Mary Kelly, the Scouser?

[David Orsam]

We shouldn't forget this charming young lady, convicted at Liverpool Quarter Sessions on 24 October 1883 and sentenced to five years imprisonment for stealing.

[Montague]

Bear in mind also that the accent in Liverpool and indeed accents in a lot of other places would have been rather different at this time. Even accents from Liverpool recorded in the 1960s are different to nowadays.

[MrBarnett]

We can certainly know what is the most likely place, statistically, where she would have lived in England, as a person of Irish descent, outside of London. That would be Liverpool.

The City Missionary saying she was of "Irish parentage" means, to me, that she was Irish but not from Ireland, but from England.

I'm not sure what he means by saying she's not a Welshwoman, but would he say that if she grew up in Wales? To me, he's suggesting she's from England and correcting a misperception he sees by saying she's Irish, not Welsh.

It certainly suggests she didn't have an Irish accent.

[MayBea]

The thing is though, where did MJK live as a child? We're never likely to really know, are we?.

We can certainly know what is the most likely place, statistically, where she would have lived in England, as a person of Irish descent, outside of London. That would be Liverpool.

The City Missionary saying she was of "Irish parentage" means, to me, that she was Irish but not from Ireland, but from England.

I'm not sure what he means by saying she's not a Welshwoman, but would he say that if she grew up in Wales? To me, he's suggesting she's from England and correcting a misperception he sees by saying she's Irish, not Welsh.

[Rosella]

Now that we've identified the London City Missionary who knew Mary Kelly, in the General Victims Discussion, we can re-analyze his statements.

Although he spent his entire career from the age of 31 in the East End, he had a broader-based background. He was from Bedfordshire and married a suburban Londoner who had once been married to someone from Buckinghamshire.

This is his famous quote about Mary Kelly:

"It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage..."

I take from that that she did not claim Welsh roots to him. She was known to go from Welsh to Irish with Mrs. Phoenix. Maybe Mary thought he would recognize someone with no Welsh roots because he was a Missionary.

If so, why did she still claim to be Irish as if she was born and raised there? And how come, he believed it if it wasn't true? I certainly don't think she was raised there.

What would you take from that about her accent?

Most people retain the accent of the place where they grew up. The trouble is of course, Mary told several different stories about her background.

IF she was brought up in Wales you would think that she would have a Welsh accent even if she did have Irish parents. She might have had some Irish inflections in her speech but not as much as if she'd grown up in Ireland. The thing is though, where did MJK live as a child? We're never likely to really know, are we?.

[The Cenci]

In Scouse the pronunciation of d and t are very similar (to my soft southern ear at least). Not sure that Davvies and Taffies would sound much different, but I think the a would be short: Da vvies and not Day vvies.

Any Merseysiders out there who'd like to comment ?

Great link, though, and shows a lot of common usage between Scousers, Cockneys, not to mention Glaswegians, Dubs... One big happy family, really ;-).

MrB

I can.

My Mum (from the Scotland Rd area where our accent is generally considered to be the thickest) pronounces her brother David's name as 'Davit' - with an abrupt stop.

[MayBea]

Another piece of Kelly phonology would be the pronunciation of Mrs. Buki. I'm guessing this was pronounce Bewky.
I believe her real name has turned out to be Boeku, a Dutch name. Is Buki a Scouse pronunciation or did the Morgensterns pronounce it Buki?

Based on this link, the Dutch pronunciation of Boeku would be Bookir,
so that would be close to Buki.

http://translationcloud.com/language...pronunciation/

[MayBea]

Now that we've identified the London City Missionary who knew Mary Kelly, in the General Victims Discussion, we can re-analyze his statements.

Although he spent his entire career from the age of 31 in the East End, he had a broader-based background. He was from Bedfordshire and married a suburban Londoner who had once been married to someone from Buckinghamshire.

This is his famous quote about Mary Kelly:

"It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage..."

I take from that that she did not claim Welsh roots to him. She was known to go from Welsh to Irish with Mrs. Phoenix. Maybe Mary thought he would recognize someone with no Welsh roots because he was a Missionary.

If so, why did she still claim to be Irish as if she was born and raised there? And how come, he believed it if it wasn't true? I certainly don't think she was raised there.

What would you take from that about her accent?

[MayBea]

Another piece of Kelly phonology would be the pronunciation of Mrs. Buki. I'm guessing this was pronounce Bewky.

I believe her real name has turned out to be Boeku, a Dutch name.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19037&page=5

Is Buki a Scouse pronunciation or did the Morgensterns pronounce it Buki?

[MayBea]

The nickname Davvies probably comes from David, the patron saint of Wales, their version of Paddy.

Mary Jane Jones would sound kind of funny.

It's interesting that, according to Mrs. Phoenix/Felix, Mary had a friend named Lizzie Williams. That would be c.1885.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Mr.Barnett.

The pronunciation of th is also of interest with the confusion between Carnarvon and Carmarthen as Mary's stated place of origin.

As for Davies, it's the third most common Welsh name after Jones and Williams. Isn't that the most distinctly Welsh name of the three? If Mary was Welsh and, as most assume by now, picked a fake married name, why would she happen to pick it over the others?

I'm not sure. Personally I would think of Jones as the archetypical Welsh name. But all three names are also extremely common in England. So I don't know that Mary would necessarily thought of Davies as specifically Welsh.

MrB

[MayBea]

Thanks, Mr.Barnett.

The pronunciation of th is also of interest with the confusion between Carnarvon and Carmarthen as Mary's stated place of origin.

As for Davies, it's the third most common Welsh name after Jones and Williams. Isn't that the most distinctly Welsh name of the three? If Mary was Welsh and, as most assume by now, picked a fake married name, why would she happen to pick it over the others?

[MrBarnett]

In my research, I discovered that Welshmen are referred to as Davvies in the Liverpool Scouse accent and dialect.

http://onthekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=1543.0

If Mary was a Scouse speaker, wouldn't Davies be the first name she'd think of for her alleged Welsh husband?

And wouldn't the accent explain why Barnett couldn't clearly understand her?

Was it just faulty memory or was Mary a Scouser?

In Scouse the pronunciation of d and t are very similar (to my soft southern ear at least). Not sure that Davvies and Taffies would sound much different, but I think the a would be short: Da vvies and not Day vvies.

Any Merseysiders out there who'd like to comment ?

Great link, though, and shows a lot of common usage between Scousers, Cockneys, not to mention Glaswegians, Dubs... One big happy family, really ;-).

MrB

[MayBea]

Scouse is considered one of the hardest English accents to understand. I think most Welsh accents are considered to make for clear English.

Which English accent is the worst?
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...2065527AAVs3IR

[MayBea]

Joseph Barnett deposed : ... She said she was married when very young in Wales to a collier. I think the name was
Davis or Davies.

In my research, I discovered that Welshmen are referred to as Davvies in the Liverpool Scouse accent and dialect.

http://onthekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=1543.0

If Mary was a Scouse speaker, wouldn't Davies be the first name she'd think of for her alleged Welsh husband?

And wouldn't the accent explain why Barnett couldn't clearly understand her?

Was it just faulty memory or was Mary a Scouser?