Her eyes?

[Losmandris]

I am sure I had read that the photos were used for ID purposes. So I wonder was there one floating about of MJK? I suppose it was less likely because it was known right away who was living at 13 Millers court. So not much point. For the other victims establishing an ID would have taken a lot longer and using a photo as ID would have been a useful tool.

[Wickerman]

Yes, thankyou Joshua.

We also read in the Daily Telegraph, where the reason is given...
"To-day a photograph is to be taken, so as to preserve, as far as possible, the means of identification."

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881004.html

Here it was also explained that the photograph was taken before the autopsy.
"It is intended by the police to photograph the remains in the course of to-day, after which they will be disinfected and a post-mortem examination will be made by Dr. Bond and a medical colleague".

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881003.html

I notice here we find reference to a photograph of Stride by her nephew, PC Walter Stride.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/people/18881028.html

[Joshua Rogan]

From newspaper reports, it seems that the police did take photos for id purposes, at least in the torso cases.
Here's one involving the Whitehall torso, but (from memory) other cases also mention photos of the respective remains.

"Shields Daily Gazette - Wednesday 31 October 1888

THE WHITEHALL MYSTERY.
Yesterday, the remains of the unknown female that were found recently at Whitehall were interred at Woking by the parish authorities, the order for burial having been handed over by Inspector Marshall, who has charge of the case. The remains, consisting of the trunk, arm, and leg, were removed from the mortuary in Millbank Street, Westminster, where they have lying to await identification, to Wallis’s Yard Workhouse, and placed in a coffin, before being conveyed to their final resting place. Among the persons who called at the mortuary was an old woman who thought she recognised in the photograph which had been taken of the remains some trace of a daughter who had been missing since August, but she could not be positive upon the point."

[Wickerman]

There must have been one I presume. As was the case with the other victims for ID purposes? In the case of Eddowes, considering the damage inflicted, the pathologist did a good job reconstruction wise. Could this have been possible in MJKs case I wonder or were the injuries just too severe?


There could always be a chance that it turns up at some point? It could well be in a long forgotten trunk in an attic somewhere?

Just on this. Would someone been shown a/the picture first before being invited to ID the body?

I suspect this idea the photo was taken for I.D. purposes has arisen in more later times.
A contemporary press report says the photographer was sent for by Dr Phillips, at the inquest it was Phillips who produced a photograph, the reporter wrote that Phillips had taken the photo (meaning he authorised it). No surviving document claims the police were responsible for taking the photographs.

That would suggest the photo's were medical evidence not part of the police investigation. The only reason we have them today is due to them being introduced as part of the evidence at the inquest. Taking those photographs do not appear to have been part of the police initiative, so not likely used as you suggest as part of the I.D. process.

[Losmandris]

I wonder what happened to the photo they took after they stitched what was left of MJK back together? I know one photo purporting to be her was actually Eddowes at the mortuary.

There must have been one I presume. As was the case with the other victims for ID purposes? In the case of Eddowes, considering the damage inflicted, the pathologist did a good job reconstruction wise. Could this have been possible in MJKs case I wonder or were the injuries just too severe?


There could always be a chance that it turns up at some point? It could well be in a long forgotten trunk in an attic somewhere?

Just on this. Would someone been shown a/the picture first before being invited to ID the body?

[Losmandris]

Not only that but it's a "feel\sense" thing in identifying her.

I totally agree. Something no one should ever have to do but I think that you would know. Especially if you have been intimate/spent a lot of time with that person. That said there are exceptions, I find it truly bizarre that someone mistook Liz Stride for her sister, was convinced in fact? In that case, I am presuming she had not seen her sister in many years?

[Aethelwulf]

I repeat that I gave the autopsy reports of all of the murders to a surgeon I worked with at the time, and he was convinced that Mary Kelly was not killed by the person who mutilated the other mutilated victims.

Trying to create mystery where there is none.

[Scott Nelson]

Did that surgeon you worked with have the background to assess the mindset of the Kelly's killer? Was that mindset different from of the other victims' killer(s)? Or could it have been the same killer with different mindsets?

motives, reasons, psychosis...

[Varqm]

Realise that I am a bit late to this conversation but saw it in the archive column, read it the posts and wanted to comment!

Unless the murderer completely skinned the face I think it would not be that difficult for Barnett to ID MJK. I sometimes imagine the photo that we have can be deceptive in the fact, that as mentioned earlier there was a lot of blood covering the face. Once this had been cleaned off/up in the mortuary identification would have been made easier!

Not only that but it's a "feel\sense" thing in identifying her.

[Harry D]

Realise that I am a bit late to this conversation but saw it in the archive column, read it the posts and wanted to comment!

Unless the murderer completely skinned the face I think it would not be that difficult for Barnett to ID MJK. I sometimes imagine the photo that we have can be deceptive in the fact, that as mentioned earlier there was a lot of blood covering the face. Once this had been cleaned off/up in the mortuary identification would have been made easier!

I wonder what happened to the photo they took after they stitched what was left of MJK back together? I know one photo purporting to be her was actually Eddowes at the mortuary.

[Losmandris]

Realise that I am a bit late to this conversation but saw it in the archive column, read it the posts and wanted to comment!

Unless the murderer completely skinned the face I think it would not be that difficult for Barnett to ID MJK. I sometimes imagine the photo that we have can be deceptive in the fact, that as mentioned earlier there was a lot of blood covering the face. Once this had been cleaned off/up in the mortuary identification would have been made easier!

[Bridewell]

Barnett could only identify MJK by what was there. Hard to identify anyone by eyes alone, I would have thought and I certainly couldn't identify any member of my family from their ears. Hair is another matter. I can understand the reasoning for suspecting Barnett but not for questioning the identification. I see no point in speculating that the body was not that of MJK. If Kelly had wanted to disappear she could just have left the area; there was no need to murder a substitute in order to facilitate that process.

[Cogidubnus]

Quite...

All the best

Dave

[miss marple]

If Joe had a cockney accent the H would have been silent so it could easily have been Hair also the ears were clipped so not much to see.
Her hair was a distinctive feature.

Miss Marple

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I believe that I read that the police had the eyes of at least one of the victims photographed, supposedly in the belief that after death, the human eye retained the last image it saw!
Sounds crazy that it would actually happen, but weren't seances etc very much in vogue amongst polite society in Victorian times?

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4924/5366.html

Anyway, if that was the general thinking, might it not also have something to do with the reason for leaving the eyes?
Alan

in Dew's memoirs, he said that the police did indeed tried optography on MJK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optography