Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?

[pinkmoon]

When people question if poor Mary was a ripper victim we have to ask the question what are the actual odds of two lunatics carving women up in such a small area I would say they would be very very high.

[Prosector]

When people question if poor Mary was a ripper victim we have to ask the question what are the actual odds of two lunatics carving women up in such a small area I would say they would be very very high.

I agree, although it depends what you mean by lunatic. Kosminski I would class as a lunatic (although that isn't a word used in psychiatry today) because he was a low grade schizophrenic - ie wasn't able to function normally without support. I do not believe that the Ripper was. I believe he was a psychopath with a severe personality disorder but quite capable of functioning independently and holding down a job.
Prosector

[Bridewell]

The skill was most highly shown in canonical 4 (ie Eddowes) and I speak as a surgeon and an ex-teacher of anatomy. Taking out the kidney by the anterior trans-peritoneal approach is extremely difficult in the best of conditions and it absolutely could not be achieved by wild, blind slashing about with a knife. Dr Brown clearly recognised that at the time.
Prosector

This opinion, coming from a surgeon, should carry a lot of weight. It certainly does so with me. Thanks for posting.

I know this is off topic, but it's germane to the theory that a single killer escalated his savagery with each victim, culminating in the Kelly murder:-

In your opinion, could a person who was possessed of the requisite skill have accomplished the feat in the 8 minutes between Lawende's sighting of a couple in Church Passage and the discovery of the body of Eddowes?

[The Good Michael]

It also means "to have no significant effect..Harmless", which was the context in which it was used Mike.

Cheers

Only referring to the medical field.

Mike

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Colin

This opinion, coming from a surgeon, should carry a lot of weight. It certainly does so with me. Thanks for posting.

On the whole holds good for me too...certainly I give more weight to Prosector's postings on medical matters, than I do many others; on other issues, however, I tend to be more circumspect...

All the best

Dave

[Rosella]

So what does this mean, in terms of the Eddowes killing anyway, a butcher, someone working at horse slaughtering, doctor?

[markmorey5]

Eddowes most certainly a doctor, ex doctor or medical student. Removal of the kidney in the fashion that it was done could not be duplicated by someone used to the anatomy of animals, such as a butcher or an abbotoir worker. Especially amazing that it was done in low light conditions and within the timeframe available. Had to be a very competent in human anatomy because the killer was working by feel.

Where Kelly's murder differs is that it shows little medical skill and could have been done by an abbotoir worker.

[Varqm]

The skill was most highly shown in canonical 4 (ie Eddowes) and I speak as a surgeon and an ex-teacher of anatomy. Taking out the kidney by the anterior trans-peritoneal approach is extremely difficult in the best of conditions and it absolutely could not be achieved by wild, blind slashing about with a knife. Dr Brown clearly recognised that at the time.
Prosector

Prosector let me ask you a few questions. In your opinion...

What minimum did he have to learn to take out the kidney in the way he did.

If you have days or weeks to just focus/think on taking it out, and without thought/care of damaging the surrounding organs,with the person dead, what would be the number of minutes would you be able to take out the kidneys in dark conditions.

[markmorey5]

The human kidney is surrounded by and hidden by fat and other tissue, so finding it is extremely difficult. My surgeon estimated that removal could have been done in about 15 minutes in the position (front-on) in good lighting by someone with sound anatomical knowledge and experience, and we have to consider that her uterus was removed taking extra time. In the near-dark he couldn't even estimate a time, but could only describe it as 'astounding'.

Clearly the killer had removed these organs from human bodies in the past, given the lighting conditions and the time taken.

[Rosella]

So much for the theory that Eddowes' kidney was sent to George Lusk then. The person who wrote the From Hell letter was certainly no doctor!

[SirJohnFalstaff]

When people question if poor Mary was a ripper victim we have to ask the question what are the actual odds of two lunatics carving women up in such a small area I would say they would be very very high.

Isn't exactly how copycats are created?

Not saying it is the case.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

The human kidney is surrounded by and hidden by fat and other tissue, so finding it is extremely difficult. My surgeon estimated that removal could have been done in about 15 minutes in the position (front-on) in good lighting by someone with sound anatomical knowledge and experience, and we have to consider that her uterus was removed taking extra time. In the near-dark he couldn't even estimate a time, but could only describe it as 'astounding'.

Clearly the killer had removed these organs from human bodies in the past, given the lighting conditions and the time taken.

I just finished reading Dew's memoirs. He clearly says that Mitre Square was a well lit area.

But he wrote those much later in his life, and did commit a few remembering mistakes

[markmorey5]

I just finished reading Dew's memoirs. He clearly says that Mitre Square was a well lit area.

But he wrote those much later in his life, and did commit a few remembering mistakes

There were two gaslights in Mitre Square and one outside, but the glow of the outside light was obstructed. The square was reported as being 'quiet at night and poorly lit', which is probably why it made a good patch for Eddowes to conduct her business. Her body was found in the southwest corner which was the darkest part of the square. It seems that Eddowes took the killer to the actual place where she intended to have sex with him, and there she was murdered.

Gaslights had a poor coverage of illumination compared to electrical lights.

[RockySullivan]

Eddowes most certainly a doctor, ex doctor or medical student. Removal of the kidney in the fashion that it was done could not be duplicated by someone used to the anatomy of animals, such as a butcher or an abbotoir worker. Especially amazing that it was done in low light conditions and within the timeframe available. Had to be a very competent in human anatomy because the killer was working by feel.

Where Kelly's murder differs is that it shows little medical skill and could have been done by an abbotoir worker.

Interesting....the way she was cut sliced from bottom to breastplate n then eviscerated....was this technique of cutting used by Butchers? It doesn't seem like a technique a dr would be accustom too. How about a mortuary technician? Another thing....the way the organs where thrown over her shoulder....do butchers ever do this? Cut the animal and place the intestines over the animals shoulder? It seems to me like that technique of slicing up..then placing organs there was the something the killer was in the habit of doing. Has anyone come across this as a specific procedure commonly used by butchers? It seems very telling

[JLFrye]

So much for the theory that Eddowes' kidney was sent to George Lusk then. The person who wrote the From Hell letter was certainly no doctor!

no one knows for sure if any of the letters were written by the ripper anyways, but if it was (and that is the most likely letter), then he could've made it poorly written on purpose.