Finding more out about MJK

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

The death in 1885 was for Marie Gabrielle Petit

The death in 1894 was for Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit, and judging by the info you provided and by what I'm able to view without a subscription, it matches your Marie

Thanks Natasha
The woman who died in 1894 is definitely the mother of the woman you proposed as a possible MJK.
Her husband Jean Kelly Snowden was a doctor from England.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

This is a rough family tree I think might be correct for the Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly (actually the surname was Kelly Snowden, as I explained) b c 1856 that you brought to our attention.

Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit married Jean Kell(e)y Snowden in 1841 (there are four index entries for this marriage with variant spellings but all the same marriage on the exact same date. There is one index entry incorrectly shown as 1851 but the image of that marriage record clearly shows a date of 1841.

In 1856 the couple registered their daughter's birth-Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly Snowden.(the one you picked out as a possible for MJK in the records.)
The same couple also had children named William Kelley Snowden and another daughter, at least.

Yes, you are correct-On 3rd Oct 1894 Jeanne's mother, Marie Gabrielle Julie Snowden nee Petit died and her death is in the index under both her married name Snowden and maiden name, Petit.

Is the 1885 death you mention for someone named Snowden or Petit, or both, like the 1894 one is?

Hi Debra,

The death in 1885 was for Marie Gabrielle Petit

The death in 1894 was for Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit, and judging by the info you provided and by what I'm able to view without a subscription, it matches your Marie

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha



But when the Chapman picture was taken they weren't exactly poverty stricken...they were, in fact, what would be known today as upwardly mobile...and let's just confirm there are so far no known living photographs of Smith, Tabram, Nicholls, Stride or Kelly, not to mention MacKenzie or Coles...

Photography was still not, in the 1880's, cheap...it was very much a luxury product...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave

Judging by the fact that John McCarthy had a shop and rooms to let, I would assume he was not poverty stricken. Also Mrs McCarthy of Breezers hill also owned property and again I would not say she was destitute.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Natasha

I just went on the assumption that because there are photos of Chapman, and other poor people, then there surely would be as least one picture of the any of the witness s etc. It just struck me a little bit strange that of all the people connected to Kelly, there is not a single picture found. Even the lack of pictures of Abberline, you would definitely expect to find a picture of one of the most famous chief inspectors of the JTR case.

But when the Chapman picture was taken they weren't exactly poverty stricken...they were, in fact, what would be known today as upwardly mobile...and let's just confirm there are so far no known living photographs of Smith, Tabram, Nicholls, Stride or Kelly, not to mention MacKenzie or Coles...

Photography was still not, in the 1880's, cheap...it was very much a luxury product...

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Debra

I think that it is actually a different Marie Gabrielle Petit from the one I found because your Marie died in 1894, where else my Marie died in 1885, and if my Marie is the mother of Jeanne Kelly then I doubt someone would make a mistake on the death certificate of Marie Gabrielle Petit by 9 years.

Do you think its possible that Jeanne could have been MJK?

Hi Natasha,

This is a rough family tree I think might be correct for the Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly (actually the surname was Kelly Snowden, as I explained) b c 1856 that you brought to our attention.

Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit married Jean Kell(e)y Snowden in 1841 (there are four index entries for this marriage with variant spellings but all the same marriage on the exact same date. There is one index entry incorrectly shown as 1851 but the image of that marriage record clearly shows a date of 1841.

In 1856 the couple registered their daughter's birth-Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly Snowden.(the one you picked out as a possible for MJK in the records.)
The same couple also had children named William Kelley Snowden and another daughter, at least.

Yes, you are correct-On 3rd Oct 1894 Jeanne's mother, Marie Gabrielle Julie Snowden nee Petit died and her death is in the index under both her married name Snowden and maiden name, Petit.

Is the 1885 death you mention for someone named Snowden or Petit, or both, like the 1894 one is?

[GUT]

Hi Gut

I just went on the assumption that because there are photos of Chapman, and other poor people, then there surely would be as least one picture of the any of the witness s etc. It just struck me a little bit strange that of all the people connected to Kelly, there is not a single picture found. Even the lack of pictures of Abberline, you would definitely expect to find a picture of one of the most famous chief inspectors of the JTR case.

Made a mistake about Hutchinson, but I feel there is something bogus about him

Yep Abberline is another good example.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha
Looking at the full Ancestry entry, Jeanne Gabrielle's full name should be Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly Snowden. The surname Snowden doesn't appear in the index for some reason.

Just to double check I looked for her parents marriage and I think this is it:

Name: Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit
Marriage Date: 24 mai 1841 (24 May 1841)
Father's Name: j Baptiste vincent Petit
Mother's name: Antoinette Julie Defer
Spouse's Name: Jean kelley Snowden

I think there was another daughter named Marie Julie Snowden.

Hi Debra

I think that it is actually a different Marie Gabrielle Petit from the one I found because your Marie died in 1894, where else my Marie died in 1885, and if my Marie is the mother of Jeanne Kelly then I doubt someone would make a mistake on the death certificate of Marie Gabrielle Petit by 9 years.

Do you think its possible that Jeanne could have been MJK?

[Natasha]

G'day Natasha but my Great Grandfather was born about 1860 [no one is real sure] and died in 1929 and there is not a single photo known to exist of him, so why would we expect photos of people who were many times poorer?

And Hutch wasn't an informant but a witness.

Hi Gut

I just went on the assumption that because there are photos of Chapman, and other poor people, then there surely would be as least one picture of the any of the witness s etc. It just struck me a little bit strange that of all the people connected to Kelly, there is not a single picture found. Even the lack of pictures of Abberline, you would definitely expect to find a picture of one of the most famous chief inspectors of the JTR case.

Made a mistake about Hutchinson, but I feel there is something bogus about him

[Wickerman]

... If that is true why give out Hutchinson's name?

Hi Natasha.
Perhaps I missed something, but who gave out Hutchinson's name?

At the time, Scotland Yard did not name their witness, but he was interviewed by a Central News reporter, and that press article contained his name.

[GUT]

What I find really interesting is the lack of photos of Barnett, all of Kelly's neighbours, her landlord and his wife, and other people connected to this murder. Also Hutchinson seems quite bogus to me and there are no records or photos we know of, of him. I say this because (I know we have discussed the following else where) but in a newspaper dated a couple of years ago Scotland Yard said they can not give out names of people within their JTR files, as informants descendant's safety may be put in jeopardy. If that is true why give out Hutchinson's name? The only reasons I can think of at the moment are that s/he was given this pseudonym to cover the real identity or maybe there is another explanation.

I feel something has been deliberately held back, or there was an over embellishment of truth

G'day Natasha but my Great Grandfather was born about 1860 [no one is real sure] and died in 1929 and there is not a single photo known to exist of him, so why would we expect photos of people who were many times poorer?

And Hutch wasn't an informant but a witness.

[Debra A]

In the 19th century ca 1863 (kelly's birth year maybe), Limerick was part pf the Gaeltacht. Would the Catholic parishes have used anglicized names or would they have used something like Maire ni cheallaigh (or Mairead) rather than Mary Kelly? I'm referring to birth records of course.

Mike

It varies from parish to parish in my experience. There are still a lot of Catholic records that haven't been transcribed too, I don't recall finding many indexed/transcribed/digitised from Limerick so far. Also, civil registration of births didn't start in Ireland until 1864. If MJK was born before this year she won't be in the Irish civil birth index and her Catholic birth/baptism records may still be untranscribed.

[Debra A]

Hi Debra

Thanks for the info, that is very interesting, the entry I found was spelt Kelly. The mother Petit died in 1885 I think.

Also I found Marie Gabrielle Petit or someone else with that name had a child with another Jean but using the spelling Kelley. But something about the dates didn't add up so I just assumed this Kelley and Kelly are not the same people

Thansk Natasha
Again, I think it was the index transcription at fault with the marriages. There appear to be two marriages for two different couples with the same name but a difference in the spelling of Kelly as you rightly say, one in 1841 and one in 1851 but looking at the 1851 marriage it is actually 1841 and I feel they are both the same record for the same couple with alternative spellings.

Yes, the birth for Jeanne Gabrielle is spelt Kelly in the birth index but when you view the original image the surname is Kelly Snowden.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha
Looking at the full Ancestry entry, Jeanne Gabrielle's full name should be Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly Snowden. The surname Snowden doesn't appear in the index for some reason.

Just to double check I looked for her parents marriage and I think this is it:

Name: Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit
Marriage Date: 24 mai 1841 (24 May 1841)
Father's Name: j Baptiste vincent Petit
Mother's name: Antoinette Julie Defer
Spouse's Name: Jean kelley Snowden

I think there was another daughter named Marie Julie Snowden.

Hi Debra

Thanks for the info, that is very interesting, the entry I found was spelt Kelly. The mother Petit died in 1885 I think.

Also I found Marie Gabrielle Petit or someone else with that name had a child with another Jean but using the spelling Kelley. But something about the dates didn't add up so I just assumed this Kelley and Kelly are not the same people

[The Good Michael]

In the 19th century ca 1863 (kelly's birth year maybe), Limerick was part pf the Gaeltacht. Would the Catholic parishes have used anglicized names or would they have used something like Maire ni cheallaigh (or Mairead) rather than Mary Kelly? I'm referring to birth records of course.

Mike

[Natasha]

What I find really interesting is the lack of photos of Barnett, all of Kelly's neighbours, her landlord and his wife, and other people connected to this murder. Also Hutchinson seems quite bogus to me and there are no records or photos we know of, of him. I say this because (I know we have discussed the following else where) but in a newspaper dated a couple of years ago Scotland Yard said they can not give out names of people within their JTR files, as informants descendant's safety may be put in jeopardy. If that is true why give out Hutchinson's name? The only reasons I can think of at the moment are that s/he was given this pseudonym to cover the real identity or maybe there is another explanation.

I feel something has been deliberately held back, or there was an over embellishment of truth