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Alice Carroll, Mary Wilson, and Joe Barnett's Statement

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  • Alice Carroll, Mary Wilson, and Joe Barnett's Statement

    Alice Carroll was a 16 year old witness in the Phoenix Park Murders in Dublin in 1882 and then disappeared from the records. It is believed she went into a "witness protection" program and relocated. Some say she was relocated to London and given the name Mary Jane Kelly.

    http://fanning-wrighttree.blogspot.c...onnection.html

    Mary Jane Wilson was a 27 year old mother of two in Liverpool in 1881. She had a mysterious son nicknamed Jack who was registered in Liverpool in October of 1887. Her maiden name was Kelly and she disappears from the records after 1887.

    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=14196&page=3

    These stories conflict with Joseph Barnett's statement but are these differences enough to rule out either of these women?

  • #2
    Alice Carroll

    Alice Carroll was a witness in the case relating to the conspiracy to murder a special juror named Field.
    Alice was born April 26 1866 in Eccles lane and would have been 22 at the time of the murder of Mary Jane Kelly ( I was the person who supplied Michael Fanning with the genealogical data on the family)
    Alice was reportedly in Dublin as late as September 1887 when she was fined for using abusive language.The newspaper reports mention that this is the same Alice Carroll involved in the 1883 trial.
    Here is the first problem-Barnett states he met Mary Jane Kelly on 8th April 1887 and they agreed to live with one another the day after.
    Research by Jenni and Neal Shelden have shown that Kelly's claims, via Barnett, that she arrived in London in 1884 , have some foundation in the records. Morganstone, Mrs Felix (Phoenix) and Mrs Bukki all existed at exactly the time and place they should have and were all connected to each other-corroborating Barnett's story somewhat.
    It has been claimed that perhaps Alice Carroll flitted between Dublin and Whitechapel 1884-1888 but this seems highly unlikely if Alice was supposedly relocated for her own safety.
    Alice spent time in Grangegorman prison (the address given is the same as her address given in the Field trial) and a description of her survives in those records. She was 5ft 4in with a fresh complexion, brown hair and blue eyes.
    Claims that Alice is untraceable in the census records after 1883 is misleading. The Irish census records before 1901 have not survived.
    Last edited by Debra A; 03-07-2014, 01:50 PM.
    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
      Alice Carroll was a witness in the case relating to the conspiracy to murder a special juror named Field.
      Alice was born April 26 1866 in Eccles lane and would have been 22 at the time of the murder of Mary Jane Kelly ( I was the person who supplied Michael Fanning with the genealogical data on the family)
      Alice was reportedly in Dublin as late as September 1887 when she was fined for using abusive language.The newspaper reports mention that this is the same Alice Carroll involved in the 1883 trial.
      Here is the first problem-Barnett states he met Mary Jane Kelly on 8th April 1887 and they agreed to live with one another the day after.
      Research by Jenni and Neal Shelden have shown that Kelly's claims, via Barnett, that she arrived in London in 1884 , have some foundation in the records. Morganstone, Mrs Felix (Phoenix) and Mrs Bukki all existed at exactly the time and place they should have and were all connected to each other-corroborating Barnett's story somewhat.
      It has been claimed that perhaps Alice Carroll flitted between Dublin and Whitechapel 1884-1888 but this seems highly unlikely if Alice was supposedly relocated for her own safety.
      Alice spent time in Grangegorman prison (the address given is the same as her address given in the Field trial) and a description of her survives in those records. She was 5ft 4in with a fresh complexion, brown hair and blue eyes.
      Claims that Alice is untraceable in the census records after 1883 is misleading. The Irish census records before 1901 have not survived.
      Many thanks,

      Velma

      Comment


      • #4
        G'day MayBea

        It is believed she went into a "witness protection" program and relocated.
        Was there a Witness Protection program in 1882, I seriously doubt it.
        G U T

        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GUT View Post
          G'day MayBea



          Was there a Witness Protection program in 1882, I seriously doubt it.
          People were given money to relocate. Protection proved minimal in one case.
          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

          Comment


          • #6
            G'day Debra

            Thanks for that.

            I guess that was almost enough when you could adopt any name you wanted as shown in the ripper case. Imagine trying to get away with that in these days of ID.

            Do you know when even that started.
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GUT View Post
              G'day Debra

              Thanks for that.

              I guess that was almost enough when you could adopt any name you wanted as shown in the ripper case. Imagine trying to get away with that in these days of ID.

              Do you know when even that started.
              Hi GUT
              Too right. it was the equivalent of 25,000 GPB on top of never having to prove your identity wherever you went.
              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

              Comment


              • #8
                The mother in law of Mary McCarthy (named Carthy by Barnett) of One Breezers Hill told reporters that Mary Kelly was a buxom woman who was difficult when she had a few drinks. Breezers Hill was adjacent to Pennington Street and Barnett said that Joe Fleming who lived in Bethnal Green Road had a relationship with Kelly in Pennington Street, Stepney. This was probably a relationship based at John and Mary McCarthy's. The McCarthys ran either a refuge for prostitutes or a brothel, and census records show a number of women with the occupation of prostitute living with them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by markmorey5 View Post
                  The mother in law of Mary McCarthy (named Carthy by Barnett) of One Breezers Hill told reporters that Mary Kelly was a buxom woman who was difficult when she had a few drinks. Breezers Hill was adjacent to Pennington Street and Barnett said that Joe Fleming who lived in Bethnal Green Road had a relationship with Kelly in Pennington Street, Stepney. This was probably a relationship based at John and Mary McCarthy's. The McCarthys ran either a refuge for prostitutes or a brothel, and census records show a number of women with the occupation of prostitute living with them.
                  Thanks, Mark. The Breezer's Hill/Pennington Street connection is the part of the story I alluded to in my first post. I believe Neal and Jenni Shelden have successfully identified a few of the characters and locations involved in MJK's back story, as told to Joseph Barnett, and their book containing the new research is an absolute must have.

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mary-Jane-Ke...eal+shelden%22
                  ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                  I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I should add-The Shelden's research has uncovered actual relationships between some of the people mentioned by Barnett in relation to MJK's back story, rather than single, possible identifications from census material etc.
                    For me, this supports the information that MJK was in London from 1884, as stated by Barnett.

                    With Mary Jane Wilson (nee Kelly) there is a similar problem. We know that she was in Liverpool in October 1887 to register the birth of her son.
                    It has been proposed therefore that Mary Jane Wilson left her husband and two children in 1884, came to London from Liverpool, got pregnant by a lover in London, met and began living with Barnett while pregnant in April 1887 (and continued to live with him right up until the birth in October 1887) and then supposedly went to Liverpool to register the birth of her child, putting her husband's name of the birth certificate, having the child baptised and generally acting as if nothing untoward had happened at all. Then returning to Barnett in Whitechapel where she was murdered in 1888-Barnett keeping silent about the whole 1887 episode.

                    There is (so far) a genuine lack of an obvious death/re-marriage record in Liverpool (which I believe is the place searched so far?)for Mary Jane Wilson.
                    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Field day

                      Hello May. Interesting speculation.

                      Of course, Alice was a witness in the attempted murder of Denis Field. And her testimony played a key role in getting Joe Brady hanged.

                      Cheers.
                      LC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Molony

                        Hello GUT. Actually, many informants were "secretly resettled" by HM government.

                        You might have a go at Senan Molony's "The Phoenix Park Murders." Great read.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

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                        • #13
                          Carey

                          Hello Debs. Ah! that would be James Carey. Yes, his resettlement did not work.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

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                          • #14
                            And a new name shall be given them.

                            Hello GUT. It started when informants were perceived to be in danger.

                            Seems the new identities retained the same first name. So, for example, James Carey became "James Power."

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              G'day Lynn

                              But do you actually know when witness protection started in the UK?
                              G U T

                              There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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