Johnto - an idea

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
In absolute agreement with you, that is the obvious interpretation.
The only snag being, the army brother has always been named as Henry who served in the second battalion scot's guards.
Where does the name John derive from?

Hello Richard.
The statement does acknowledge that the brother's name was Henry, "but known as John too", which might suggest his name was Henry John Kelly?

The Kelly family must have existed , otherwise how was her brother traced , and forwarded Mary's belongings, it would appear that his parents were spared the publicity, and her brother reluctantly became involved.
Regards Richard.

We know a good number of researchers have pursued what they think is every possibility, yet all come up empty. Something is wrong somewhere, we just haven't identified the 'what'.

The easiest route is to say "its all lies". Who knows..

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Jon,
In absolute agreement with you, that is the obvious interpretation.
The only snag being, the army brother has always been named as Henry who served in the second battalion scot's guards.
Where does the name John derive from?
The Kelly family must have existed , otherwise how was her brother traced , and forwarded Mary's belongings, it would appear that his parents were spared the publicity, and her brother reluctantly became involved.
Regards Richard.

Maybe she had more than one brother in the Guards? one who'd been in for a while, and one who had joined recently. Depending on where they were stationed when she died, it might have been much more practical to send the younger one her things.

[RivkahChaya]

There was a rumour that she [MJK] had a slight speech impediment. That, in turn, gave rise to speculation about accent, etc. To date, French, Welsh and Irish have all been suggested. One speculator even had Scots.

Cheers.
LC

Supposedly, she wore false front teeth that didn't fit well. That'll make you lisp, because air escapes. It's not a genuine speech impediment, in that you just need a properly fitting bridge, not speech therapy. I don't know how she lost the teeth (assuming this is true), but she may have had normal speech before.

If you take an example of Abberline's handwriting you will see he has a tendency to conflate words together:
[examples deleted-- see post]

The fact that Johnto is written at the extreme edge of the right side of the paper (and, it is squeezed in) suggests to me he had not room for the second 'o' of 'too'.
The words, I think, should be "John too". The second 'o' is reduced to a tail because of no space.

I think the intent was to say, "The father's name was John, the brother was called John too".

I think that you are right, especially because I doubt MJK would say "John-to"; the Welsh name, IIRC the BBC How Green was My Valley, is pronounced "Yahn-toh," and in Wales spelled "Ianto." If MJK meant the Welsh name, I think Abberline would have written "Ianto," or would have written something phonetic, like "Yantoe," if he wasn't familiar with the name.

If the father and brother really were both named John, it's possible the brother was actually called "John-2," rather than John junior, for some reason. Maybe he was a stepson of the father. Or maybe he was the second John, jr. born into the family, because the first one died. People call their kids weird stuff. The name "Bathsheba" in the bible (a better phonetic spelling is "Batsheva") just means "Daughter #7," as though after six girls, and n sons, the parents couldn't be bothered to come up with any more names.

There was a Catholic family in my neighborhood where all the girls (there were five, I think) were named Mary. They were Mary Anne, Mary Catherine, Mary Theresa, etc., and so we called them Annie, Kate, Terry, but all the Jewish kids still thought it was weird, because we don't name people after anyone living.

I wondered if Mary's brother - if not born in Wales - could've been called John and when in Wales was given the diminutive by the locals. And it stuck.

It seems more likely that if this is the brother who joined the Scot's Guards, he'd be in the Scot's Guards with a Welsh accent, and so they'd called him what is essentially the Welsh version of "Johnny." His name wouldn't even need to be "John" to begin with. When I was in the US Army, there was a guy in my training unit who was Irish, from Dublin, who had joined the US Army as a shortcut to US residency-- it's automatic after an honorable discharge, and your time in the military counts as time "in the country" if you want to apply for citizenship. Anyway, a lot of people called him "Irish," which he said he didn't mind. I called him by his name anyway.

I realize it's been said that people have checked EVERY variant spelling, but if "Ianto" really is short for "Ifan," I wonder if people have checked "Ivan." If at any point an American did the recording, I think the American would hear "Ifan" as "Ivan," even if the first vowel were "ee." Americans get addressed to Russians named "Ivan," pronounced "ee-VAHN," with that pronunciation, and still right off begin calling them "EYE-van."

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
In absolute agreement with you, that is the obvious interpretation.
The only snag being, the army brother has always been named as Henry who served in the second battalion scot's guards.
Where does the name John derive from?
The Kelly family must have existed , otherwise how was her brother traced , and forwarded Mary's belongings, it would appear that his parents were spared the publicity, and her brother reluctantly became involved.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

If you take an example of Abberline's handwriting you will see he has a tendency to conflate words together:
- toldme (told me)
- thather (that her)
- formanof (foreman of)
- livedat (lived at)
- shehada (she had a)
- shealso (she also)

The fact that Johnto is written at the extreme edge of the right side of the paper (and, it is squeezed in) suggests to me he had not room for the second 'o' of 'too'.
The words, I think, should be "John too". The second 'o' is reduced to a tail because of no space.

I think the intent was to say, "The father's name was John, the brother was called John too".

[DVV]

The Truth has long been swallowed by the Corryvreckan.

[lynn cates]

rumours

Hello Chava. That's a good question.

There was a rumour that she had a slight speech impediment. That, in turn, gave rise to speculation about accent, etc. To date, French, Welsh and Irish have all been suggested. One speculator even had Scots.

Cheers.
LC

[Chava]

Quick question to which I should know the answer: did MJK speak with a Welsh or an Irish accent? If she comes up with 'Johnto' as her brother's name whether real or made-up that suggests possibly she may have been a Welsh-speaker. Did she ever go to church or make a confession? I'm beginning to wonder if she was even Irish although I can't see any reason for her to make that one up given the feeling about the Irish that existed then.

[DGB]

Thanks Lynn

I know a range of the best researchers in the field have tried exhaustively to find more background info on Mary.

Even if they hadn't, I don't think the info would've been very helpful - given that John is probably the worst name to search historical records for.

However, hopefully it throws something into the pot as to where the odd name of 'Johnto' may have come from.

[lynn cates]

been there, done that

Hello DGB. Good thinking.

Unfortunately, some top researchers have tried most of the variants--but with little success.

To date, NONE of Barnett's story of "MJK" has been confirmed.

Cheers.
LC

[DGB]

Was recently watching Would I Lie to You on the Beeb. Welsh comedian Rhod Gilbert was on, and mentioned having a hamster called Ianto.

This of course set me thinking. A quick search shows:

Ianto (pronounced Yan-toh) is the pet form of the name Ifan, one of the Welsh forms of John.

I wondered if Mary's brother - if not born in Wales - could've been called John and when in Wales was given the diminutive by the locals. And it stuck.