Johnto - an idea

[Errata]

John is Yochanan. Jonathan is Yonatan. Most Jews I know, know that, and few gentiles do. I don't know anyone who thinks of Jonathan as an especially Jewish name, but thinks of John as an especially non-Jewish name. I think a lot of people just don't know the etymology at all, because I've actually seen some little kids from the cre8tive name generation named "Johnathon."

And yet, all the Jonathans I know are Jewish, and all the John's I know are Christian. Evidently whatever Jewish name an Apostle was given becomes a Christian name. My fiance has a Jewish name, and his parents not only had no idea, they were a little uncomfortable with the idea. Of course, they were also surprised I had a Seder, since they had one in their home as part of the pre Easter festivities. Had no idea it was a Jewish holiday, and I don't even know how that happens. I blame public schooling.

[RivkahChaya]

John is Yochanan. Jonathan is Yonatan. Most Jews I know, know that, and few gentiles do. I don't know anyone who thinks of Jonathan as an especially Jewish name, but thinks of John as an especially non-Jewish name. I think a lot of people just don't know the etymology at all, because I've actually seen some little kids from the cre8tive name generation named "Johnathon."

I knew an Israeli family with sons named Yonatan, and Yochanan. They visited the US for a while, but they didn't translate their names, which was good. I don't think Americans could have handle the same family having a John, and a Jonathan as well.

People call me Rachel because they can't remember my name, except that it starts with R. Although I did have a high school gym teacher who persisted in calling me Elizabeth. After six weeks, I gave up correcting him. There was a girl in the class named Elizabeth, and he just could never remember her name at all. He just pointed and gestured at her. Once he asked someone else what her name was, was told it was "Elizabeth," and said "No it isn't."

[Errata]

My name is Rivkah, and I'm constantly getting called "Rachel." It's not just that people aren't familiar with the name Rivkah, because Jewish people do it too, and women I know named Rebekah/Rebecca tell me they get called Rachel a lot as well. My son's name is John, we call him Johnny, and yet even people who have seen it written still persist in calling him "Jonathan."

That's weird. Because Rivkah is Rebecca, not Rachel. Rachel is Rachel. Maybe they assume his name is Jonathan because that is a Jewish name, where John tends to be given in Christian families?

[RivkahChaya]

My name is Rivkah, and I'm constantly getting called "Rachel." It's not just that people aren't familiar with the name Rivkah, because Jewish people do it too, and women I know named Rebekah/Rebecca tell me they get called Rachel a lot as well. My son's name is John, we call him Johnny, and yet even people who have seen it written still persist in calling him "Jonathan."

I don't know too many men named James, who don't go by Jim, or Jamie, but maybe people named James get called "John" a lot, by mistake.

Usually, I correct people who call me the wrong thing, but once in a while, someone is really persistent, and I don't see them very often, so I just let is go.

Also, for the record, was there a literary or legendary character named John Kelly? In the US, there's a John Henry of legendary strength (who actually may have been an advertising character, but I don't know the whole history-- he goes back pretty far though) so a really strapping guy with a similar name, like James Henry, would very likely get called "John Henry" in the US.

[Errata]

As best as I can figure, there was only one Kelly in the Royal Scots in 1888, and that was James Henry Kelly.

I've always found it a little maddening that it is terribly easy to find evidence of James Henry Kelly, but that as we here in the south say "You can't get there from here". Can't find his parents, can't find his sister, can't find anything beyond his induction into the Army. Beyond that it's just a sea of Kellys.

You wouldn't think it would be hard. We know the family was in Tipperary when James was born, theoretically they lived in Wales, They lived in Glasgow in 1886... ironmonger father probably... but no. Can't find them without plowing through every record generated in four countries with the last name Kelly and looking for dates to line up. A herculean task.

[Errata]

That could well be. After a lifetime of knowing my uncle Jack it was not until after his funeral that I saw the death certificate, his given name was John. To this day I don't know where the name Jack came from, but that was how everybody knew him.

Jack is a common nickname for John. Never figured out why exactly, but my cousin is John Jr. So he's called Jack. John F Kennedy was called Jack. And possibly related possibly not, and indoor toilet was a "john", and an outdoor toilet was called "jacks".

[RivkahChaya]

Maybe "known ... as John[ ]to[o]," means "known as 'John,' in addition to 'Henry.'" Abberline had the same information we have-- some people called him John, and some people called him Henry. Abberline didn't know, and for him, it didn't matter, why, but he made a note of the fact in case he needed to track him down as some point in the investigation.

I think I didn't put this very clearly: what I meant was that Abberline may have been thinking "He's called 'Henry,' his actual name, and he's called 'John,' too. I'll note that down."

Yeah, the military is famous for giving nicknames. Our last name starts with "M-A-C," so my husband frequently got called just "Mac," instead of our full name. Because he's a really big, tall guy, he got called "Big Mac" a lot too (the name of a sandwich at McDonalds, for Brits). When our son was born, people in his unit called him "Little Mac." In fact, the email sent out to his unit when the baby was born had the subject line "Little Mac is here."

[Edward]

Researching Nicknames ...

Hello All
Having served in the military, I know from my own experience that many people get a nickname hung on them. I had the nickname Joe for example, and everybody that I hung out with in the service addressed me as Joe. Otherwise, most service members were referred to by their last name.

In college, my nickname was Ned. Everybody (including my wife) referred to me as Ned while I was at the university.

Still later, when I worked in a hospital, everyone called me Ed until a classmate of mine from college joined our staff and began calling me Ned. I became Ned to everyone in the Pharmacy Department (there were two Eds in our department, and it was an easy way to differentiate between the two of us).

My point is that nicknames are commonly assigned to an individual, and many of them have nothing (or little) in common with the person’s given name.

It is too bad that researchers have spent time and energy looking into a nickname that may have had nothing to do with the person’s given name. I guess that it had to be investigated, though.

Edward

ps many people that I know also use the terms 'called' and 'named' interchangeably.

[Chava]

I was born and raised in the UK. We used 'named' and 'called' interchangeably. I don't think we can read too much into that usage.

[RivkahChaya]

Maybe "known ... as John[ ]to[o]," means "known as 'John,' in addition to 'Henry.'" Abberline had the same information we have-- some people called him John, and some people called him Henry. Abberline didn't know, and for him, it didn't matter, why, but he made a note of the fact in case he needed to track him down as some point in the investigation.

[Wickerman]

Again, I don't know how that comes across to Brits, but that comes across as intended to imply that John, or Johnto, whichever, was not his given name.

That could well be. After a lifetime of knowing my uncle Jack it was not until after his funeral that I saw the death certificate, his given name was John. To this day I don't know where the name Jack came from, but that was how everybody knew him.

Is it possible that Abberline just made a mistake?

The quote was taken from a written interview with Joe Barnett, Abberline was just taking down what Barnett told him.

[RivkahChaya]

I understand your question but let me quote the passage exactly, the word "called" is not used.

"...she had a brother named Henry serving in the 2nd Battn Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrads as Johnto- ....."

There you have it, spelling mistakes and all.

Being known by his buddies in the Army might mean the name was given to him by them. Maybe they nicknamed him John because of something he did, or someone he looked like, or acted like? Or, perhaps he just didn't like the name Henry.

Again, I don't know how that comes across to Brits, but that comes across as intended to imply that John, or Johnto, whichever, was not his given name.

I've been in the military, and so have some earlier-generation members of my family, but again, I don't know much about things British; anyway, it's not typical to call people by their first name; everyone I served with got called by last name. My husband had the same experience. When I was in basic training, we did have three people with the same last name, so one of them ended up with a nickname, and another ended up being called by her first name by everyone. She was the only person everyone called by her first name.

So, I would think the most likely thing people would call him would be "Kelly." I doubt they'd call him Henry, even if that was his first name.

Is it possible that Abberline just made a mistake? Maybe someone told him MJK's brother was named John, like his father, and Abberline recorded it, but this was wrong. It wouldn't necessarily have affected his getting the package of her things, because it probably would have been addressed to her brother by his rank and last name, possibly without using his first name, and even if it did come addressed to "PVT (I don't know British ranks) John Kelly," with the unit and everything else correct, and a return address of Scotland Yard, who else would they give the package to? Mary Kelly's brother would no doubt be expecting it.

[Wickerman]

OK, here's a question for Brits: what does the phrase "called [first name]" mean to you?

In the US (or, at any rate, the part I'm from), saying that a person is "called" something, rather than named something, sounds a little odd, and might imply that whatever he was commonly called wasn't actually his name. "We call him Nick, even though his name is actually 'Peter Nikos,' because his father is 'John Peter, jr.' and has been called 'Pete' all his life." We wouldn't say "He's called 'John,'" if his first name is, in fact, "John." We'd say "He's named 'John,'" regardless of whether he's called John, Johnny, Jack, JJ, or something else entirely.

About the only time we talk about "calling" someone their given name is when we ask what a new baby will be called, but I think that's an older usage, which is fading.

Of course, whatever people said in the 1888s may not be what people say now, but still, to me, saying that MJK's brother is called, rather than named John, implies that John isn't his given name.

I understand your question but let me quote the passage exactly, the word "called" is not used.

"...she had a brother named Henry serving in the 2nd Battn Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrads as Johnto- ....."

There you have it, spelling mistakes and all.

Being known by his buddies in the Army might mean the name was given to him by them. Maybe they nicknamed him John because of something he did, or someone he looked like, or acted like? Or, perhaps he just didn't like the name Henry.

[RivkahChaya]

OK, here's a question for Brits: what does the phrase "called [first name]" mean to you?

In the US (or, at any rate, the part I'm from), saying that a person is "called" something, rather than named something, sounds a little odd, and might imply that whatever he was commonly called wasn't actually his name. "We call him Nick, even though his name is actually 'Peter Nikos,' because his father is 'John Peter, jr.' and has been called 'Pete' all his life." We wouldn't say "He's called 'John,'" if his first name is, in fact, "John." We'd say "He's named 'John,'" regardless of whether he's called John, Johnny, Jack, JJ, or something else entirely.

About the only time we talk about "calling" someone their given name is when we ask what a new baby will be called, but I think that's an older usage, which is fading.

Of course, whatever people said in the 1888s may not be what people say now, but still, to me, saying that MJK's brother is called, rather than named John, implies that John isn't his given name.

[lynn cates]

wisdom

Hello Jon.

"We know a good number of researchers have pursued what they think is every possibility, yet all come up empty. Something is wrong somewhere, we just haven't identified the 'what'.

The easiest route is to say "its all lies"."

For one who has not lived even a single lifetime, you're a wise man, Van Helsing.

Cheers.
LC