Johnto - an idea

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
As for Barnett's story, I would say it was repeated to the police in good faith, it appears [ only from Ms Kendall] that the brother in the army was traced, and belongings forwarded.
This is only hearsay however[ but believable], and until a few years ago we had no idea that this may have happened.
It would appear that her mother/father were kept out of the media [ for understandable reasons] although I would suggest that the police knew of their whereabouts.
Because of the shame, it is quite conceivable that the whole family emigrated, and I have still not discounted the alleged picture of a younger Mary Kelly which Chris Scots informant sent .
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"speculating that Limerick could have been an misunderstanding of Limerigg - didn't get me anywhere though!"

Can one get ANYWHERE with Barnet's story?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Caz.

Hi Jon,

When Abberline was writing out Barnett's statement, he would surely have made 'John' the last word on that line and 'too' (as in also) the first word on the next line, if they were meant to be separate words, rather than squashing them together at the end of a line, only leaving himself enough room to misspell the word as 'to'.

Abberline frequently joins words together, we have numerous examples of this. He also has a tendency to squash a word on the end of a line where clearly there is insufficient room.
Even, to the point of curving a word around and down just to fit all the letters in at the edge of the paper.

What I have no evidence of is the idiosyncrasy of him writing "to" for "too". It is common enough today, we see it all the time. What I need to see are any private letters by Abberline where "too" might appear. We would not expect to see this in a police report but in personal communications, quite possibly.

[Bridewell]

They lived in Glasgow in 1886... ironmonger father probably.

Is this a good time to mention Limerigg again? (24 miles east of Glasgow) - a logical recruiting ground for the Scots Guards.

[Bridewell]

Hello Chava. That's a good question.

There was a rumour that she had a slight speech impediment. That, in turn, gave rise to speculation about accent, etc. To date, French, Welsh and Irish have all been suggested. One speculator even had Scots.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I think that may have been me - speculating that Limerick could have been an misunderstanding of Limerigg - didn't get me anywhere though!

[curious4]

Ianto

Thanks Lynn

I know a range of the best researchers in the field have tried exhaustively to find more background info on Mary.

Even if they hadn't, I don't think the info would've been very helpful - given that John is probably the worst name to search historical records for.

However, hopefully it throws something into the pot as to where the odd name of 'Johnto' may have come from.

Hello DGB,

Sure you're right. Had the same thought myself.

Best wishes,
C4

[The Good Michael]

Yep, me too. Jon Toe. I assumed Jon Toh would sound the same.

Of course they are the same. I just spelled it differently in my head.

Mike

[caz]

I've always thought it was Jon Toe (the sound). I threw in the John 2....sort of like John Jr. just for jollies.

Mike

Yep, me too. Jon Toe. I assumed Jon Toh would sound the same.

Love,

Caz
X

[DVV]

How about Jaune Toux ? (sort of Hong Kong flu, but French)

[The Good Michael]

Hi GM,

John 2 (two) or John too - either way we have to assume Abberline was a rotten speller, don't we?

With Johnto, plausibly from Ianto, a Welsh pet form of John, and pronounced "Jon-toh", everything adds up, including how and where it appears on the page.

I've always thought it was Jon Toe (the sound). I threw in the John 2....sort of like John Jr. just for jollies.

Mike

[caz]

John 2

Hi GM,

John 2 (two) or John too - either way we have to assume Abberline was a rotten speller, don't we?

With Johnto, plausibly from Ianto, a Welsh pet form of John, and pronounced "Jon-toh", everything adds up, including how and where it appears on the page.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

John 2

Mike

[caz]

"...she had a brother named Henry serving in the 2nd Battn Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrads as Johnto- ....."

There you have it, spelling mistakes and all.

Being known by his buddies in the Army might mean the name was given to him by them. Maybe they nicknamed him John because of something he did, or someone he looked like, or acted like? Or, perhaps he just didn't like the name Henry.

Hi Jon,

When Abberline was writing out Barnett's statement, he would surely have made 'John' the last word on that line and 'too' (as in also) the first word on the next line, if they were meant to be separate words, rather than squashing them together at the end of a line, only leaving himself enough room to misspell the word as 'to'.

In addition it looks like an awkward way for a reasonably educated Victorian to structure the sentence, unless Johnto ("Jon-toh") was indeed how Henry was known to his military pals. I would have expected Abberline to write: "...she had a brother named Henry... also known as John [ie like his father] amongst his comrads".

If we had a recording of the conversation we would know for sure, because Barnett would have pronounced the "to" differently and put the emphasis in different places depending on what he was telling Abberline: either "Henry was known as John too"; or "Henry was known as Jon-toh."

When you look at the actual statement it could even be that Abberline left a gap for the nickname at the end of that line to clarify how Barnett thought it should be spelled, explaining why he didn't simply start a new line with 'Johnto'.

Love,

Caz
X

[DVV]

And yet, all the Jonathans I know are Jewish, and all the John's I know are Christian.

What about Tana Umaga and Jonny Wilkinson ?

[RivkahChaya]

Wait-- what? they aren't Jewish, and they had a seder? do they belong to one of the "Messianic Christian"/"Jews" for Jesus sects? I've never heard of Roman Catholics or mainline Protestants, or any of the American fundamentalists I'm more than a little familiar with through interpreting, doing that. I also have a cousin who has half-siblings who are Greek Orthodox, and I'm pretty sure she'd have mentioned if they did that. I'm also pretty sure the Mormons don't do that, because I had a good friend in high school who was Mormon, and I interpreted for the Mormons as well, for a while.

I guess tea lots of independent Churches of Christ (Not the same thing as the United Church of Christ, which is a mainline protestant group, IIRC, of the Church of Christ, Scientist, which is a faith-healing to the exclusion of anything else, group). Anyway, the independent churches pretty much do what they want, so if one of them wanted to host seders, good luck.

I can't imagine doing one from scratch, since most haggadot are mostly in Hebrew, and don't really have directions. You can probably get a seder plate on Amazon now though. I'd hate to think what they serve. "Here's our Passover lobster, and honey-baked ham, and 3-bean salad, and cheesecake, with the graham cracker crust. There's pizza for the kids."