Johnto - an idea

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
That being the case, then exactly what documentation was seen ? why can't the whole Kelly saga be less complex?
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Passport

Hello Richard,

Yes, I think you are right, that sounds reasonable.

I did find a reference to irish immigrants to england, saying that up to 1920 no passports were required as ireland was considered part of england.

Best wishes,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi Curious,
I would hazard a guess and suggest that Fiona's grandfather saw some form of identification, and called it a passport when relaying that sighting at a later date.
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Passports

Hello Richard,

Going by the article, but as Mary was a small child when the family came over, wouldn't she be included on her father's/mother's papers? Standard practice until at least fairly recently. Would she have had any reason to get her own passport? Not necessary for a trip to France and I should think it would have been expensive. Also from the article, the standard blue passport only came into use in the 1920s, so would whoever was said to have seen it recognise it as a passport? Just asking. Identity papers are not the same as a passport.

Cheers,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
It is a fact that passports/identification papers were in place in 1888, mainly for emigration/immigration .
I agree that for travelling purposes they were generally not common until the first world war...for obvious reasons.
So for Mrs McCarthy to have her passport and for her son to have seen it is not unusual, Irish immigrants to mainland Britain Especially.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

list

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course, the list of anomalies involving "MJK" is long and a bit convoluted.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

My understanding of aliases is that they usually relate to the original name in some way i.e. the initials are the same but used to stand for different names. Albert Smith, becomes Arthur Sydney, as an example. Also that the background is at least rooted in reality even if details are changed - it make remembering the fiction easier.

Phil

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Also, many assumed names were cognomen only. First name was retained.

Cheers.
LC

Thanks Lynn, yes, which speaks to the same reason, the need to avoid memorizing a knew first name, the name most often used.

It seems a shame to just drop it, but if you recall, Alice McKenzie could not be traced either, so we need not look to intrigue for a solution.

[lynn cates]

assumed names

Hello Jon. Also, many assumed names were cognomen only. First name was retained.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Debs.

I guess we are just at a loss for a direction to go.
The most obvious solution, as you are aware, is that her true name was not Mary Kelly, but how helpful is that?

If it was not her real name, then she assumed it, and what better identity to assume than a real one?
The real identity of a person you knew, or grew up with, someone who's family details and history would role off the tongue quite naturally. This obviously doesn't involve memorizing every aspect of a fake life, its all true, its just not your life, someone else's life.
Someone you knew.
I seem to recall suggesting this before?

Given that two of the, arguably, best results turned up are the Kelly's from Flint, and from Brymbo, a clue may lay with these families. Particularly, in my opinion, the fact that 'Mary Kelly' claimed to be Irish, moved to Wales before 16, had one sister and 6 or 7 brothers, the very basic details which fit Mary Kelly from Brymbo, yet this Mary Kelly is clearly alive and well.

This isn't so much wild speculation as a progression of logic. If the name fits, her age, and the family history fits (broadly), then we have to ask if the victim in Millers Court actually knew Mary from Brymbo?
I think that is a reasonable question.

For example, this suggested cousin in Cardiff, who lived the 'bad' life, is worth looking into. Did Hubert Kelly, or his wife Mary, have a brother or sister in Cardiff in the 1880's?

Who else could know Mary's life better than her own cousin, and did she disappear?

Is there any better direction to follow, given all the dead ends?

[curious4]

Re passports

http://m.guardian.co.uk/travel/2006/nov/17/travelnews

Passports were not generally required for travel abroad until the first world war.

Cheers,
C4

[lynn cates]

. . . he said, archly.

Hello Debs.

"How annoying it would be if not only MJK is untraceable in the records given the details we have, but her brother also enlisted using a different name-making him totally untraceable too!!"

Very acute question. And so you can see why my eyebrows are perpetually arched.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

...and I for one was extremely anxious to hear more....but
Regards Richard.

It certainly would have been very useful to hear more as the McCarthy's must then have known MJK's correct name if they saw her passport? Maybe Fiona would have been told it too? Then we could check the idea that her brother was in the Military too-presuming he didn't give a false name , of course.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
At Least now we are talking about Fiona's recollections, which we are assured came from her grandfather[ McCarthy's son] and family history.
It is quite clear,that as she clearly recollects the knowledge, that her great grandmother parcelled up Kelly's belongings and sent them to the brother in the army she would have had an inkling to who she was sending to?
She via her husband, via the police, may have picked up the vibes that the brother was not overjoyed with being associated with all this , albeit agreed to receive the parcel, [ which I am sure was forwarded on to her Mother.
Fiona's grandfather insisted that he saw Kelly's passport[ much of Casebook disputed this at the time, and we have to discuss the merit in this].
Although it has been a few years now, I stoutly believe that the good lady was informing Casebook in good faith, and her patience with us became short-lived, when the ''put up.. or shut up'' approach came about.
This happened also with J.D Hutchinson[ daughter in law to Topping's younger brother].
Such a shame that we never experienced more insight from these good people, who wrote to Casebook in good faith, and I for one was extremely anxious to hear more....but
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Hi all,
Jon, I think you once gave a figure for the number of men who enlisted under a false name and the figure wasn't that large? A couple of records I looked at also documented that fact within them so that some were discovered to be using false names and their real name included in their files also makes the figure smaller? How annoying it would be if not only MJK is untraceable in the records given the details we have, but her brother also enlisted using a different name-making him totally untraceable too!!
Henry not being in he 2nd Battalion Scots guards but a different regiment would also be another one of those annoying blips if he was in a different regiment and also using a different name!

We seem to have got to he stage where we are now mulling over and discussing the idea that police did trace the family and they preferred no publicity but as far as I can tell there isn't much to base that idea on apart from Fiona Kendall Lane's claims that's what happened?