The coat at Miller's Court window

[Wickerman]

Depending on which paper you read to get the inquest info, times vary. However, this is a rough basis to start...

- Barnett stated he got to MJK's room at about 7:45 and stayed for 15 minutes.

Interestingly, in the original GLRO, Barnett says he was with Kelly for one hour.
As a pointer for others who hold the original record up as the only correct version, it is necessary to point out that it is only by the use of the newspaper records that we can correct this fault, and others like it.
He was there about 15 minutes, from 7:30-7:45.

- Harvey, at the inquest, stated she was in MJK's room when Barnett arrived and apparently left right away. However, later in the press, she stated that MJK was visiting her and left at 7:30.

It would appear Harvey was with Kelly all Thursday afternoon into the early evening, until Barnett arrived. The story that Kelly visited Harvey in New Court appears to be only an early misunderstanding.

- Lizzie Albrook stated in the press (she didn't appear at the inquest) that she was in MJK's room when Barnett arrived which was around 8:00

It is odd that neither Harvey nor Albrook mention each other, and that Barnett mentions neither by name.
The 'woman' referred to by Barnett must indeed be Maria Harvey, but that does not exclude Lizzie Albrook from being a passing visitor. Who, in finding that Kelly had visitors, just said "Hi" and "bye", only staying for a brief minute or two.

- If Prater's story that she gave The Star is legitimate then she saw MJK at 9:00 but outside the room.

Which would fit with Harvey's claim that Kelly went out in the direction of Leman St. Kelly may have mentioned that this is where she will go later that night because obviously Harvey would be in no position to have known where Kelly went, she never saw her again. All we might determine from Harvey & Prater is that Kelly had planned to go out that evening.
Maybe, that is why Harvey left her own bonnet, for Kelly to use?

[Nemo]

Thanks Robert

If you refer back to the same link, Stewart Evans has kindly posted the article in full which mentions both the coat and curtains covering the window

[Robert]

Hi Nemo

I should think that the article was saying that the coat was found over the window on the morning of 9th. It's possible of course that the killer hung it there as an extra precaution against being seen while he was at work. But I don't think the article leaves open any possibility that the police or doctors or someone else hung the coat there after they entered the room. So, according to this source, the coat was found over the window on the morning of 9th.

[Nemo]

The coat in the window is mentioned here....

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17893

...From the Sunday Times Nov 11th

Of course, that doesn't imply that it was there on the night of the murder

Also relevant is the positioning of the wash stand and the recess by the fireplace

[richardnunweek]

Hi DRoy,
It seems to suggest ,that as Mrs Harvey states that Kelly visited her at her new lodgings around 7pm, then it was Albrook surely that was in Kelly's room prior to Barnett's arrival , which would suggest that Harvey had departed that afternoon and Barnett had visited her then also, which he apparently did not inform the police, as far as we know that is..
I have recently entertained the idea that it was Albrook that Maxwell saw at the morning sighting, she was around 20 years old, and worked at a Dorset street lodging house, which would fit in with Maxwell's statement''being about in the lodging house''
It could also mean that she left Kelly's room with her maroon crossover, which she could have borrowed, her neighbour Mrs Pickett[?] attempted to borrow it the following morning, so it could be that Mary lent it occasionally.
I tend to believe Mrs Prater's sighting, as it describes a bonnet and jacket being worn by Mary, both of these items were burnt ,the police believing because they were bloodstained.
Now that is confusing..
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Hi Jon & Richard,

Also the bonnet[ which was burnt] which was apparently worn by Kelly on the eve of the eighth[ as confirmed by Mrs P]..Did that in itself signify a night that was intended to be out of the ordinary...as it has been mentioned that Kelly was known to have never worn a hat/bonnet.

"Confirmed" may be a strong word. It is mentioned in The Star the day after the inquest. You'd think the last time Prater saw MJK and what MJK was wearing would have been of importance to mention at the inquest.

I am somewhat confused, as to when exactly Mrs Harvey left room 13, we know that Kelly visited her in her new lodging around 7pm, but she was not the person that was there when Barnett called around 7,30 , so was it indeed the afternoon that she saw Barnett , making the ''I shall not be seeing you any more this evening'' more likely.

Depending on which paper you read to get the inquest info, times vary. However, this is a rough basis to start...

- Barnett stated he got to MJK's room at about 7:45 and stayed for 15 minutes.
- Harvey, at the inquest, stated she was in MJK's room when Barnett arrived and apparently left right away. However, later in the press, she stated that MJK was visiting her and left at 7:30.
- Lizzie Albrook stated in the press (she didn't appear at the inquest) that she was in MJK's room when Barnett arrived which was around 8:00
- If Prater's story that she gave The Star is legitimate then she saw MJK at 9:00 but outside the room.

I may suggest that perhaps Harvey was misquoted/misunderstood by the reporter. However that doesn't answer why Barnett says that a woman was in MJK's company when he arrived. Was it Harvey or Albrook? They both couldn't have been there.

Summary: Yes it is confusing!

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Wow thanks Jon! That's quite an undertaking task to complete.

Cheers
DRoy

You're quite welcome.
It just takes patience and persistence, the kind of virtues that help one deal with the frequent exchanges I get myself involved in

Hi,
A couple or so points..
I wonder if there was any trace of the pawn ticket left by Harvey pledged for two shillings?

That's where the inventory taken by Abberline would have helped immensely.

Also the bonnet[ which was burnt] which was apparently worn by Kelly on the eve of the eighth[ as confirmed by Mrs P]..Did that in itself signify a night that was intended to be out of the ordinary...as it has been mentioned that Kelly was known to have never worn a hat/bonnet.

Yes, it may be the case that Kelly only wore that bonnet once, likely, she didn't own one of her own.

I am somewhat confused, as to when exactly Mrs Harvey left room 13, we know that Kelly visited her in her new lodging around 7pm, but she was not the person that was there when Barnett called around 7,30 , so was it indeed the afternoon that she saw Barnett , making the ''I shall not be seeing you any more this evening'' more likely.

I think this is another example of the 'evening' being referred to as 'afternoon'. There are a couple of other instances where this occurred.

Also one wonders why Kelly dropped of to New court around 7pm that evening to see Mrs H, before venturing home [ apparently from th Ten Bells]?
Regards Richard.

That is a little odd, isn't it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
A couple or so points..
I wonder if there was any trace of the pawn ticket left by Harvey pledged for two shillings?
Was it burnt amongst the clothing, or taken by the killer?
Also the bonnet[ which was burnt] which was apparently worn by Kelly on the eve of the eighth[ as confirmed by Mrs P]..Did that in itself signify a night that was intended to be out of the ordinary...as it has been mentioned that Kelly was known to have never worn a hat/bonnet.
I am somewhat confused, as to when exactly Mrs Harvey left room 13, we know that Kelly visited her in her new lodging around 7pm, but she was not the person that was there when Barnett called around 7,30 , so was it indeed the afternoon that she saw Barnett , making the ''I shall not be seeing you any more this evening'' more likely.
If so, it would be likely that Joseph Barnett actually called on MJK Twice , but he apparently does not mention this to the police, neither is it known if they realized this.
Also one wonders why Kelly dropped of to New court around 7pm that evening to see Mrs H, before venturing home [ apparently from th Ten Bells]?
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Wow thanks Jon! That's quite an undertaking task to complete.

I wonder who else the police showed the coat to in order to identify who's it was since nobody else mentions it. Perhaps Barnett told the police since he was also there earlier that evening.

Thanks again Jon

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Hi DRoy.
Your quote from The Scotsman, is repeated below by Morning Advertiser (MA).

This section below is from my Mary Kelly Inquest file where I compared every published sentence, still in progress, as you can see I have not included The Scotsman yet.
The GLRO, as you know, is the original. As you might see, the 'gentlemen' referred to could be the 'police' in the GLRO version.
*******************************

(GLRO) I was in the room when Joe Barnett called I went away I left my bonnet there. I knew Barnett – I left some clothes in the room 2 mens shirts, 1 boys shirt, an overcoat a black one a mans, a black crape bonnet with black strings, a ticket for a shawl in for 2/- - One little childs white petticoat – I have seen nothing of them since except the overcoat produced to me by police.

(DT) [Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.

(T) ...and witness was in the deceased's room when Joe Barnett called. Witness left the house on Thursday evening, leaving several articles in the deceased's care, including sheets, an overcoat and a bonnet. She had not seen any of the articles except the overcoat since.

(MA) Joe came in while she was there. She left some clothes to be washed, including two shirts, petticoats belonging to a child, and a black overcoat.
The Coroner. - Two shirts belonging to the same man?
Witness. - No, sir. I saw the coat again on Friday, when it was shown me by some gentlemen.

(DN) I was in the room when Joe Barnet called. I left a quantity of things in the deceased's room by her permission, amongst them being two men's shirts and a man's overcoat.

(SJG) She saw Barnett there that afternoon for a short time. Barnett and the deceased seemed to be on the best of terms. The witness left in the house some wearing apparel and a ticket of a lace shawl pawned for 2s.

(E) What do you do for a living? - I am a laundry-woman. When I left the deceased I put my bonnet in her room, and said, "Well, Mary Jane, I won't see you any more this evening. I'll leave my bonnet in your room." The next thing I heard of her was that she was murdered. I also left in the room two dirty shirts, a little boy's jacket, and a black overcoat. I have not seen anything since, except the black overcoat.

[DRoy]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your reply. Do you recall if there was anyone besides Dew that commented on the coat being in the window?

Further to my last post, there is also this from The Scotsman regarding what Maria Harvey said about the coat at the inquest..."She saw the coat again on Friday, when it was shown her by some gentlemen." Are we to assume these gentlemen were in fact plain clothes officers or Inspectors at Miller's Court?

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Those are good questions DRoy, though in some cases we read of curtains, and others they are blinds.
Maybe Dew's words have coloured our interpretation, maybe the coat was not hanging up at all?
Though, it would be a convenient location to hang a coat from assuming there were no nails in the walls.

[DRoy]

Hi Jon,

Are you referring to the pilot coat covering the broken window?
It was brought by Maria Harvey, it appears Mary & Maria were laundering clothes in room 13.

Is there any proof it was actually hanging from the window?

Bowyer describes moving a curtain to see inside MJK's room, not a coat.

Maria Harvey who left the coat there says this interesting comment at the inquest about if she saw the coat again..."Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon." In other words the coat was either hanging in the window yet Bowyer doesn't mention it...or...she must have been allowed to look in the room even after it was being blocked by police which is odd (Plus, why use the words "in a room in the court" when she would have known that the room she saw it in was MJK's room a/o 13 Miller's Court?).

The Daily News reports that the broken window was stuffed with rags with no mention of the coat. In a seperate article it states that a coat was found in the room but doesn't specify where.

Mary Ann Cox says "There was a light in the window, but I saw nothing, as the blinds were down." The coat could have been behind the blinds and therfore Cox didn't see it but if the coat was reported as blocking the broken window then you'd assume she would have seen it. It doesn't make sense to have the blinds or curtain closed and then hang the coat from the inside to block the cold. How would that even work?

Is Dew the only person who comments on the coat needing to be pushed aside (presumably hanging)? Perhaps something changed from the time Cox saw the blinds and Dew moved a coat?

Cheers
DRoy

[richardh]

Pilot coat! That's it!

I couldn't remember what it was called.

Just looked it up and a pilot coat is the same as a pea coat, worn by sailors.

cuirous

Thanks.

[curious]

Are you referring to the pilot coat covering the broken window?
It was brought by Maria Harvey, it appears Mary & Maria were laundering clothes in room 13.

Regards, Jon S.

Pilot coat! That's it!

I couldn't remember what it was called.

Just looked it up and a pilot coat is the same as a pea coat, worn by sailors.

cuirous