The coat at Miller's Court window

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Since it was established before the inquest that Maria Harvey had left clothing in MJK's room and had herself stayed there a couple of nights, I'd assume that the police would have questioned her extensively. Instead of Abberline having to guess whether it was melted previously or not, who better to ask then the person who had stayed with MJK. Since there was very little furniture in the room, you could assume Maria would have noticed the kettle and its condition.

Of course this is just a guess on my part but I'd like to think the police would have asked Maria as much as they possibly could about the room and contents and therefore be able to say the melted kettle was something new.

DRoy

Thats a good effort DRoy, but what if when Maria last saw it the spout was attached but as a result of the overheating Ive suggested when Mary went to put the kettle on when she came home the spout detached.

My real point here is that there is no reason to suspect that a large fire was responsible for the spout being detached, because we dont know the condition of the kettle before any fire that night..unless your correct in guessing that Maria was asked about it, something I seriously doubt myself, probably not on the list of things the police wanted to speak with her about,....and it was probably repeated overuse that caused the melted solder anyway.

Also be advised that Maria left that room for good on the 3rd, anytime she had been back there was to visit, not to sleep over. So technically.. she was not around most of that time. The police wouldnt be able to learn Marys activities the past few days from Maria, but they could learn about the last day from her. Maria was with Mary in her room all afternoon on the 8th.

Its one reason I suggest they may have been doing that washing and folding that afternoon....and why I suggested the spout issue may have resulted from those multiple heatings over the fire for hot water.

All the best.

[DRoy]

Michael,

Since it was established before the inquest that Maria Harvey had left clothing in MJK's room and had herself stayed there a couple of nights, I'd assume that the police would have questioned her extensively. Instead of Abberline having to guess whether it was melted previously or not, who better to ask then the person who had stayed with MJK. Since there was very little furniture in the room, you could assume Maria would have noticed the kettle and its condition.

Of course this is just a guess on my part but I'd like to think the police would have asked Maria as much as they possibly could about the room and contents and therefore be able to say the melted kettle was something new.

DRoy

[DRoy]

Richard,

We have reports of residents reporting to McCarthy earlier that morning, that they were concerned that Mary was not answering the door and the blinds were still down...is this the real reason why Bowyer visited room 13?

Can you elaborate on this please Richard? Are you referencing Catherine Pickett's visit to MJK's room the morning of the murder? I don't recall her or anyone else commenting on the blinds being down but I could be wrong.

Question. would he have not remained on site, to secure that area from inquisitive residents, and to seal off the room from either exit, or possible attempted entry?

All we know is that he didn't. Depending on whether you believe his inquest testimony or statements he apparently gave to the press; he either went with Bowyer to the police station or he met Bowyer at the police station but he did not secure the room.

How can Dew mistake age to that degree?

Perhaps he meant McCarthy, not Bowyer?

DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hi.
One can assume the police knew if the damage to the kettle was caused by the last fire lit, or on a previous occasion,Mrs Harvey spent the Thursday afternoon with Kelly, and earlier that week had breakfast with her.
Reports had it that it was damaged by the fire of the 8th/9th , and I believe that. it would appear just that .
Naturally we were not around then , so I would take the obvious view.
Regards Richard.

If the kettle was continuously heated during the day on the 8th Richard, and that was the cause of the solder melting, then we are really only talking about a few hours earlier than is suspected. Since no-one knows how long it was separated before they found it,.. a few hours doesnt seem much.

Abberline suggested that it was burned off due to extreme heat, since he also surmised that the killer used the burned objects for some light to work in. I suggest it was probably melted by continuous heating, rather than a short, intense, heating.

Appreciate the feedback on the coat hook idea gents...I suspect it may have some merit since it does seem within reason.

My best regards

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
One can assume the police knew if the damage to the kettle was caused by the last fire lit, or on a previous occasion,Mrs Harvey spent the Thursday afternoon with Kelly, and earlier that week had breakfast with her.
Reports had it that it was damaged by the fire of the 8th/9th , and I believe that. it would appear just that .
Naturally we were not around then , so I would take the obvious view.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

My point earlier seems to have been missed but I believe it makes some sense to suggest that coat hooks very often are behind or beside the front door. The fact that this one slightly obscured the window makes me think its possible the coat was on a hook that was beside that window....or between the window and the front corner. That is a very small area, the coat could easily protrude across the window if hung there.

You're quite right Michael, and sometimes we overlook a few points in a post, this one among them.
Thats a reasonable suggestion.

Question: In the shot of MJK from the left of the bed there is a tin washtub visible underneath the bed. We know Maria brought washing with her to the room...since Mary has a pump outside her window in the alcove and a fireplace with a kettle she could heat water in..(maybe too often, it may have melted the solder,)....

Yes, I also picked up on all those same points, there is no indication when the kettle lost its spout, it could have been that way for months.
They should have asked Barnett

.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The events that took place at 1045 in millers court are very puzzling.
We have reports of Mrs McCarthy and 14 year old son collecting rents from the court residents, but apparently not Mary Kelly, this was the apparent duty of Indian Harry.
We have reports of residents reporting to McCarthy earlier that morning, that they were concerned that Mary was not answering the door and the blinds were still down...is this the real reason why Bowyer visited room 13?
After Bowyer saw the body, he alarmingly reported this to his master, and McCarthy went to look for himself.
Where was his wife and son whilst this was going on?
Apparently he then sent his man to the police station, and he himself followed on.
Question. would he have not remained on site, to secure that area from inquisitive residents, and to seal off the room from either exit, or possible attempted entry?
It is hardly likely that he would have placed that experience on his wife and young son, who would have been traumatized .
I have no idea where the 1000 members of the public appears from[ at least at the initial stage] albeit a huge crowd gathered after the police presence was obvious...but not whilst Beck and his informants were en-route back to the crime scene.
It would appear that McCarthy junior was the youth that Dew remembers, he not only stated that a youth was the bearer of the news at the station, but he was interviewed again at the court, when he was calmer.
I have always had reservations about McCarthy sending the elderly Bowyer to fetch the police, when he had a fitter , more sprightly 14 year old son close at hand.
How can Dew mistake age to that degree?
Regards Richard.

[DRoy]

Michael,

Yes word would have spread quickly but it still doesn't make sense that there were 1000 people gathered by the time Dew and Beck showed and Bowyer and McCarthy returned to the court. They along with the murderer were the only ones that knew about it. Who could have spread the word besides them? Plus they admitted to all hurrying to the scene.

Your point of a coat hook is a good one, sorry I should have said so earlier. It makes sense and is a good theory. If true, I still think its odd that Dew and the reporter would then o ly comment on a coat that might be partially covering the broken window instead of including what would have been covering the majority of the window...the curtain. It is still a good idea though Michael.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

To further a point along, word would spread around fairly quickly on a day when lots of people were already outdoors in the streets...and this was Mayors Day.

My point earlier seems to have been missed but I believe it makes some sense to suggest that coat hooks very often are behind or beside the front door. The fact that this one slightly obscured the window makes me think its possible the coat was on a hook that was beside that window....or between the window and the front corner. That is a very small area, the coat could easily protrude across the window if hung there.

Question: In the shot of MJK from the left of the bed there is a tin washtub visible underneath the bed. We know Maria brought washing with her to the room...since Mary has a pump outside her window in the alcove and a fireplace with a kettle she could heat water in..(maybe too often, it may have melted the solder,)....did Maria bring her dirty laundry there to wash it, or was it cleaned laundry just kept in Marys private room for safe keeping?

It is said Mary and Maria spent that afternoon in Marys room.

Cheers all.

[DRoy]

Jon,

Thank you! You said it better than I could.

Who went with Beck? Depending on the inquest reporting and the papers that covered the inquest plus the interviews leading up to the inquest...Bowyer may have gone to the station alone or he was with McCarthy or McCarthy showed up after Bowyer.

All anyone has to do is read most papers and recognize that most of the information came from McCarthy. There are newspaper reports that specifically say that nobody knows more about the murder than Bowyer and McCarthy. Obviously because they were willing to speak to the press. They did so immediately after the murder.

Most interviews make it sound as if Beck did not have a big entourage and since he didn't testify we may not know who else went.

How can we be sure which version is correct and how can we be sure Dew was the first officer there?

I would say that second hand reporting should have very little value and without backing from anyone besides this reporter to Dew's version so long after the fact when he's been mistaken in so many other things...

Based on all that, it boggles my mind why the coat hanging in the window is such an accepted fact by many.

DRoy

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Without the forty constables how could Beck and Betham have hoped to keep back the "over a thousand people" gathered in Dorset Street?

Regards,

Simon

Oh yes Simon I agree, all I'm seeing is a telescoping of events in that article.

Beck & a few constables may have shown up first, but as word spread of police activity at Millers Court, people flocked to the scene, and Beck sent word back for assistance.

Inspector Back (sic) H Division, who was in charge of the station at the time, accompanied Bowyer back, and on finding that a murder had been committed at once sent for assistance.

Yes it would take plenty of constables to control the crowds in Dorset St. as they built up.
I was only addressing the initial appearance of police with respect to what Dew had claimed. That 'some' constables accompanied Insp. Beck, and Dew could have been one of them. Both Bowyer's & McCarthy's testimony would lead us to believe Beck came alone.

Once Beck accessed the situation, and in response to a gathering crowd then yes, he would call for assistance.

.

[DRoy]

Simon,

How could there be 1000 people there when the only people that new about the murder was Bowyer, McCarthy and the murderer?

DRoy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

Without the forty constables how could Beck and Betham have hoped to keep back the "over a thousand people" gathered in Dorset Street?

Regards,

Simon

[DRoy]

Well DRoy, as you know, speaking as one who avoids lengthy arguments I haven't formed an opinion one way or the other.

Well if nothing else you made me laugh with that comment! Great points Jon and thanks for sharing your opinions and ideas.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Well DRoy, as you know, speaking as one who avoids lengthy arguments I haven't formed an opinion one way or the other.

- I take is as likely, that both windows had something which passed for curtains (which some may call blinds).

- That also the broken windows may have had some rags pushed into them to limit a draft, though Bowyer makes no mention of removing rags.

- But also, if the coat had been left for cleaning, which is highly likely, that it had already been cleaned (sleeves, or the entire coat?) and was hanging up to dry or, that it was hanging there to keep it out of the way before it was to be cleaned.

- Even if a coat was hanging up, we don't know if it was long enough to cover the window down to the sill. Bowyer may have pulled aside a curtain which was just inches below the bottom of the coat, as he makes no mention of seeing a coat.

- Finally, there were two broken panes, the coat was obviously not large enough to cover the entire window, so I think it may have hung off one end of a curtain rod, or from a nail, which substituted for the same purpose.
If this was how the coat was hung, then it only covered one of the broken panes.
Bowyer may have peered through one of the panes, and moved back the curtain. Dew may have looked through the other broken pane and moved the coat aside?

.