Mary Jane Kelly from Tottenham - further details

[Christine]

Interesting story, although one thing that niggles me about it is the religion aspect.
We don't know for certain that Mary Jane Kelly of Miller's Court was a Catholic, granted, but people seem to have gained that impression, and so she was burried in a Roman Catholic cemetery.
The Tottenham Mary Jane Kelly, hasn't bothered to change her name, but apparently she has changed her religion instead, getting married in a Protestant church, while letting her murdered self be burried as a Catholic?
I suppose it's one way of disguising your true identity!

Well, such a trick would be no problem for a skeptic or many secular people, but you'd think she'd bother to change her name also!

Unless the dead girl of Miller's Court was a devout Catholic, then it might make sense!

[Debra A]

Interesting story, although one thing that niggles me about it is the religion aspect.
We don't know for certain that Mary Jane Kelly of Miller's Court was a Catholic, granted, but people seem to have gained that impression, and so she was burried in a Roman Catholic cemetery.
The Tottenham Mary Jane Kelly, hasn't bothered to change her name, but apparently she has changed her religion instead, getting married in a Protestant church, while letting her murdered self be burried as a Catholic?
I suppose it's one way of disguising your true identity!

[John Bennett]

Interesting to see a north London link to the case (other than the King of Elthorne Road).

Commerce Road is in what we class today as Wood Green - the school I work in is practically on the other side of the street.

JB

[Limehouse]

I agree that although this story seems interesting and exciting on the face of it, when you think about it, there is nothing that appears to connect this Mary Kelly to the one in Miller's Court. I mean, what made the family think that their Mary was the Miller's Court Mary? For the connection to have been made, Mary must have spoken about her past, which would not have made her very good wife potential (sorry, I know that sounds a bit harsh, but think of it as a Victorian male might have done - risk marrying an ex prostitute, possibly disease-ridden, and with a drinking habit? No thanks!).

It would be worth looking at it further though, if it can be done.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Colin. You're right in what you say, of course - I should have checked where Cowper Street was - but that doesn't detract much from the observation that this Mary Kelly seems to have spent most of her time at a safe distance from, and mostly well away from, Spitalfields.

Wishful thinking aside, I just can't see her slumming it with unemployed fish porter Joe Barnett until November 1888, only to be courted by, and subsequently marrying, her salesman husband less than 10 months later.

PS: Did you know that "Finsbury Park" pronounced backwards is "Crappy rubsniff"? (Kudos to the late, great Humph Lyttleton for that )

[Rob Clack]

P.S. Not a word, Rob !!!

I actually think they look quite good Colin, a lot better than the St Martins ones. I hope you remember the settings. I've got a setting on the photoshop type program I use called smart pixels which helps when reducing images.

If your going to Moscow, the best way is via Siberia

Rob

I must apologize for the "scrunched up" appearance of the above images !!!

Unfortunately, we are limited to 293k, when uploading .jpg imagery. It was something on the order of 750k before the crash.

If the above images were about 20% larger, they would be infinitely more resolute. I had to reduce their pixel-widths three times before I was able to upload them.

Again,

My Apologies !!!


Colin


P.S. Not a word, Rob !!!

William Hayes Atkinson was born in 1861 and is listed in the 1871 census as follows:
6 Cowper Street, Finsbury
(Drug Mills and Middle Class school)
Head: Joseph Atkinson aged 52 born Deal, Kent - Drug grinder
Wife: Esther Atkinson aged 51 born Norton, Herts
Children:
Joseph aged 15 - Errand boy
Frances M aged 12
William Hayes aged 9
All born St Lukes

"6 Cowper Street, Finsbury"

She also seems to have been in a fairly stable relationship with an upper working-class tradesman from Finsbury (again North London), whom she married within 9 months of the Miller's Court tragedy.

"... from Finsbury (again North London)"

We're not talking "Finsbury Park" here, Gareth !!! "Finsbury", in this instance, actually refers to The Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury (1832-1918):

- St. Giles in the Fields
- St. George Bloomsbury
- St. George the Martyr
- St. Andrew Holborn Above the Bars
- Gray's Inn
- Lincoln's Inn
- The Liberty of the Rolls
- Furnival's Inn (Middlesex portion)
- Staple Inn
- The Liberty of Saffron Hill, Hatton Garden, Ely Rents and Ely Place
- St. James Clerkenwell
- St. Sepulchre (Middlesex portion)
- The Charterhouse
- The Liberty of Glasshouse Yard
- St. Luke
- St. Mary Islington (1832-1885)
- St. Mary Stoke Newington (1832-1885)

Cowper Street, St. Luke was by no means in North London !!! The Civil Parish of St. Luke, which constituted the Middlesex portion of St. Giles Without Cripplegate, until 1733, was a sort of No-Man's-Land between the West End and the East End, on the northern periphery of The City of London.


1872 Large Scale OS: "South Shoreditch & Bunhill Fields"
Cowper Street, St. Luke


2006 Aerial / 1872 Large Scale OS Overlay


2006 Aerial

According to Google Earth; the straight-line distance from the center of Cowper Street, St. Luke to 13 Miller's Court, Dorset Street, Christ Church Spitalfields: 0.67 miles


Colin

[Chava]

when my informant was 14 she saw a copy of the Kelly body photograph in the school library

If I'd seen that at aged 14 I'd have been traumatized for months. I know that kids see more than enough violence these days both fictional and real, but that picture is terrifying.

Now I don't know anything about your informant, Chris, and forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical, but if we're talking 4 generations back to 1860 or so, I'm assuming she's not a 20-year-old woman. The first time I saw victim photographs in a book was the late '70s. And I doubt that any school library would have stocked such a graphic Jack the Ripper book in those days and I doubt earlier books carried these illustrations.

[Sergt Bill Tawyer]

Mary Kelly From Tottenham.

Hi Chris,very Interesting stuff! The one obvious question that springs to my mind Is,could you're contact confirm that this Marty Kelly had red/ginger hair colouring ! Bill.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Sam
I agree that the area in London is not what I would have expected and that this tale only proves the existence a woman named Mary Jane Kelly which we knew anyway. What I have asked (but the lady I spoke to could not help) was when and under what circumstances this story became known to the Joels i.e. was it a claim that this Mary Kelly made on her own behalf or was it just a rumour circulating locally
There are many unanswered which is why I made a point of saying that I was passing on info as it was given to me
Regards
chris

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for this intriguing post.

Howeer - am I missing something, but doesn't this simply mean that Mr Joel knew "an" Irishwoman named Mary Jane Kelly who hung around Crouch Hill, Tottenham, Hornsey and Edmonton? Apart from the verbal claim that she used to live in Miller's Court, everything seems to point to a North Londoner. She also seems to have been in a fairly stable relationship with an upper working-class tradesman from Finsbury (again North London), whom she married within 9 months of the Miller's Court tragedy.

I don't doubt that your contact was told a story in good faith, but with the compass pointing firmly "North" of the East End at each turn, this has to be an unlikely candidate for "our" Mary, whether it was really her on the bed or not.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Simon
That is what I have been told so far and, as far as I know, all the person concerned knows. I get no feeling that she has any hidden agenda or is "drip feeding" info to hold my attention.
I will ask for scans or copies of the certificates
Chris

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

Fascinating stuff. Although I'm niggled by a couple of things I can't quite put my finger on, gut reaction tells me the story may well be true. The Fermoy military connection is certainly compelling.

Is there anymore to come?

Regards,

Simon

[Chris Scott]

Some of you may remember that on the old boards I started a thread under the title of "Mary Kelly in Tottenham" or something very similar. I have today received much more detail about this person including details of her birth certificate and the date of her death.
For any one not familiar with the story I will summarise. The person who contacted me after I wrote the book on Mary Kelly had a story which intrigued me. I am sorry for the cloak and dagger stuff but this informant wishes to remain anonymous and obviously I have to respect that wish. It was only on that basis that she provided the information which I now have.
To summarise - when my informant was 14 she saw a copy of the Kelly body photograph in the school library and happened to mention this to her grandfather. His reaction was to say :"Well, it wasn't her." Asked to explain, he said that my contact's grandmother's grandparents had known Mary Kelly and that it was not her who died in Room 13 Millers Court. At the time they knew her she lived near them in South Tottenham and they gave three addresses at which she had lived.
This Mary Kelly, who, according to their account, was the Mary Kelly who had lived at Millers Court was known to both of the couple, who were named Alfred and Sarah Joel.
In 1881 they are listed as follows:
Commerce Road, Tottenham
Head: Alfred Joel aged 24 born Hull - Carpenter
Wife: Sarah Joel aged 21 born Tottenham
This confirms their existence and I have also been able to trace their marriage to 1880, Sarah's maiden name being Newsom.

Here in summary is the info I have received about the Mary Kelly mentioned in this account.
Birth:
She was born Mary Jane Kelly on 24 January 1864 in Fermoy, Ireland. (Fermoy is in the north-east corner of County Cork, near the border with County Limerick)
Her parents are listed as Dennis and Jane Kelly. Her father is listed as a Colour Sergeant with the 107th Regiment. Fermoy was a garrison town. This would be the 107th Regiment of Foot which in 1879 became the 2nd Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment

Marriage:
Mary Jane Kelly married on 24 August 1889 at Crouch Hill Presbyterian Church. Her husband was William Hayes Atkinson. I have confirmed this marriage in the BMD records (1889 Quarter 3 Islington Vol 1b Page 639)
William Hayes Atkinson was born in 1861 and is listed in the 1871 census as follows:
6 Cowper Street, Finsbury
(Drug Mills and Middle Class school)
Head: Joseph Atkinson aged 52 born Deal, Kent - Drug grinder
Wife: Esther Atkinson aged 51 born Norton, Herts
Children:
Joseph aged 15 - Errand boy
Frances M aged 12
William Hayes aged 9
All born St Lukes

In 1891 the couple are listed as follows:
32 Fairfax road, Hornsey
Head: William H Atkinson aged 29 born St Lukes - Commercial Traveller (Stationery)
Wife: Mary J Atkinson aged 27 born Ireland
Father: Joseph Atkinson aged 72 born Deal - Drug grinder
Step Mother: Ann E Atkinson aged 48 born Lynn, Norfolk

and in 1901:
52 Heysham Road, Tottenham
Head: William H Atkinson aged 39 born Finsbury - Commercial Traveller in Stationery
Wife: Mary J Atkinson aged 38 born Fermoy, Ireland
Son: Denis aged 4 months born Tottenham

Other addresses quoted for Mary, all in the same area, were Daleview Road (at the time of their marriage), Vartry Road and Warwick Road

At the time of the marriage in 1889, Kelly's father, Dennis, is listed as a Sergeant Major and one of the witnesses is a John Kelly

Death:
Mary Jane Atkinson (née Kelly) died in the last quarter of 1912 at the age of 48 and it was registered in Edmonton. Her address was given as Warwick Road, New South Gate and cause of death was endocarditis and cardiac failure.
(see below)

I pass on this information as it was given to me and, having had long chats with the lady from whom this came, I have no doubt that she is passing this on in good faith. I know that does not make it true and that stories that come down through th family can get embellished in the telling - I have found the same in my own family.
I have verified what I can and leave it to your judgement as to what you make of this story.

Chris Scott