Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Fleetwood Mac]

What her real name was we may never know, but we were told at the time, one witness who knew her told the press, "I know the woman well, I have often drunk with her but, bless your life: I don't know her proper name, we called her 'Mary Jane', we don't often know one anothers names, nobody knows mine".
Lanc. Eve. Post, 9 Nov. 1888.

Mary Kelly was not her real name, this should be apparent to most students of the case by now.

Some of the women didn't use an alias. We know this from some of the other victims.

And, tracing Mary was always going to be problematic given little is known about her, what we have comes from Joe Barnett in the main.

What Barnett tells us may have been confused or Mary didn't give him all of the details as they really were.

I don't think there's enough to confidently assert that Mary Kelly wasn't her real name, although 'Mary' could quite easily have been her 'real' middle name.

[Wickerman]

I can say one thing is certain, there are no pictures taken from the courtyard to an open door and a bloody mess beyond it. All the pics are in one room, which we are told is Marys in Millers Court....

The reason Michael, is because camera's could not do that in 1888. The scene to be photographed had to be lit by a flash immediately in front of the glass plate. If the camera was set up in the yard, an open door would come out just the same as the windows do in the one court photograph we have - black holes, or for a doorway, one big black hole.

Just sketches otherwise, and they could have been Bill Sykes room.

I don't think Bill Sykes had his own room, Fagin did.


The type of evidence that you reach for gives away your agenda.

Like your trustworthy Mrs Cox, how do you know she didn't invent Blotchy because she was jealous of Kelly getting any man, and she comes home empty handed.
No-one else saw this Blotchy character, we only have her word, yet she is your star witness.
How did the Star reporter describer Cox? - "a miserable specimen of East End womanhood".
Mrs Cox is your Hutchinson.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Thank you.

I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Simon

I have never been disappointed with you Simon. But enlightened by you,.. yes.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

Thank you.

I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Simon

[Aethelwulf]

Dont mean to be rude?

Actually it was a joke based on a comment in the accents/language thread.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Abby

Your option No. 2.

Simon

I can say one thing is certain, there are no pictures taken from the courtyard to an open door and a bloody mess beyond it. All the pics are in one room, which we are told is Marys in Millers Court. Just sketches otherwise, and they could have been Bill Sykes room.


Seriously though, you are the first one Ive ever heard to take that dramatic a position on this crime, and knowing you a bit, Im sure its not without some compelling evidence. Looking forward to the details.

[Michael W Richards]

Simon, read the blurb for your book online. Don't me to be rude, but sounds bloody awful. Given choice I'd plump for Ike's pink soc routine.

Dont mean to be rude? C'mon now...Its a given with you.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Abby

Your option No. 2.

Simon

[Wickerman]

As Wick points out Mary Kelly is probably an alias . Mary [ if indeed that was her first name ], possibly had good reason for inventing a back story and name. If Caroline Maxwell was talking to someone else they might have used the alias as well, [ interchangeable identities may have caused confusion for anyone looking for said girls ]. Would that person [ if Maxwell was talking to someone else she believed to be MJK ], then come forward and give their real name ? If she was in fear for herself for whatever reason, I doubt it.

Just a thought, Darryl

Immediately following the murder, in the Sat. morning press we have confused stories about the victim.
One witness even said the victim lived upstairs, and had a child. So, we can see some witnesses were confused as to who had been murdered. Maxwell, must have had her own opinion on who the victim was.

I already mentioned that Maxwell admitted to having not seen Kelly for 3 weeks, and in her police statement she said she had known deceased woman during the past 4 months, at the inquest this changed to 'known her for 4 months', thats not quite the same thing.
Again, to police she said she was on speaking terms with her, but at court she admitted to having never spoken to her, except twice.

Another odd comment at court from Maxwell was, "I took a deal of notice of deceased this evening seeing her standing at the corner of the court on Friday from 8 to half past".
What did she mean by "this evening"?
Maxwell also admitted in court that when she saw the victim with a man at the end of the street, she says, "I saw them in the distance, I am certain it was deceased", they were too far away for her to give a description of them.

Too many inconsistencies, it leaves me wondering if she is trying to salvage her mistake in whom she thought the victim was.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

No one was murdered in Millers Court.

Simon

so the body found at millers court was murdered somewhere else and brought there? or there was no body in millers court at all?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Aethelwulf

Ah, got it!

Thanks.

Simon

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Aethelwulf

No offence taken.

BTW. What is "Ike's pink soc routine."

Simon

It's my childish attempt to get a rise out of Ike by reffering to his Soc Pill text as he calls it in shorthand as pink soc

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon

We do?

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Aethelwulf

No offence taken.

BTW. What is "Ike's pink soc routine."

Simon

[mpriestnall]

FWIW I believe someone was murdered in Miller's Court but it wasn't Kelly.

I understand why "seanr" is somewhat skeptical of the Clayton Street sighting because of the timing, if one accepts the early morning murder time.

On the other hand, it fits very well with Maxwell's, Lewis's and the anonymous women's later sightings of "Kelly".

I am yet to check, but I suspect the description given will fit well with Packer's and/or Schwartz's descriptions.

I'm personally very excited by this sighting because it's consistent with the three aforementioned later Miller's Court sightings and the idea
of the "Kelly" survival theory.