Welsh born Scots Guards

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

I, too, am no military buff, but found this on th'interweb:

The Scots Guards (1661-present)

History: Raised in 1642 as Argyle’s Regiment (re-raised as Scottish Footguards 1661), brought on to English establishment as Scotch Guards in 1686, (Scots Fusilier Guards in 1831, Scots Guards in 1877.

Motto: Nemo Me Impune Lacessit (No one provokes me with impunity).

My surmise (but that's all it is) is that these are different names for the same regiment, with, perhaps, the odd amalgamation along the way. I guess that would mean that a man could enlist as a Scots Fusilier Guard and be discharged as a Scots Guard if he served either side of 1877 - as if it wasn't difficult enough already!!
Perhaps Johno Jones didn't qualify for a pension for some reason & is therefore missing from the pension records?

Regards, Bridewell

[Debra A]

Hmm, looking on the web, I think it might be that the Scots Fusilier Guards and Scots Guards are the same regiment but the Fusilier bit was dropped from the name in the 1870s or just before.
The Royal Scots Fusiliers do not have guards in their title.
That explains why some of the records that appear in the Scots Guards database are for men who joined the Scots Fusiliers before the name change, then?

So,that means that is the right battalion and regiment in 1871, Bridewell but I can't find anyone similar to Jno Jones b Pembrokshire in 1850.
John Jones b St Michael Pembrokeshire in 1849 is closest,he was attested at Haverfordwest, but he is in the same 1871 census entry at Chelsea in his own right I think?

I'll have another go at it.

edit: a Haverford west man but in the Royal Scots Fusiliers.

John JONES
Year of birth:1842
Place of birth:Rosemarket, Haverfordwest, Pembrok
Regiment:2nd Battn 21st Reg Of R S Fusiliers

I need to think about this. I just checked for John Jones born 1845 St Michael's Pembroke in the Scots Guards and he isn't there, he only shows when you select 'any' regiment. He is on the same Chelsea entry in the 1871 census Bridewell. His regiment is given as Sco Fursr Regiment Of Foot Guards but there is no category for this regiment to browse others!

I need a lie down in a darkened room.

[Debra A]

When I check for men born in Limerick who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusliers I get 61 definite , as opposed to 1 in the Scots Guards.

[Debra A]

Thanks, Bridewell. I found a little while ago by accident.
These are the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers though?
As they have their own database of searchable pension I presume these are a different regiment and battalion to the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards? I am no expert on military history so welcome any information about this from anyone who knows for sure.

There are some Fusilier Guards records in amongst the Scots Guards records as I mentioned previously prompting me to also check in the Fusilier Guards records for Kellys.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

If you search (Ancestry) the 1871 census for:

Forename: No
Surname: Jones
Born 1851 in Haverfordwest

it should bring him up.

It occurs to me that, if this John Jones was known as "Johno", it is likely that later entrants with the same name would be similarly nicknamed.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

While looking at the 1881 records, where the Scots Guards are posted in Trafalgar Square I noticed another guardsman, by the name of John JONES, aged 30 and born in Haverfordwest. In the 1861 census I've found a Haverfordwest John JONES, with a father of the same name, and whose mother was Mary. He's aged 10 and has a (twin?) sister of the same age, named Jane. There's nothing remarkable there really but:

in the 1871 census the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards are stationed in Chelsea Barracks and there's a guardsman by the name of JONES, born in Haverfordwest. Because of the way the photo has been taken, you can't read the whole of the forename, but it ends in 'no'. Unless there were two Haverfordwest Jones's serving in the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards, the name has to be 'Johno' or 'Jonno' Jones.

If Barnett's 'Johnto' is actually 'Johno', we could be onto something, but MJK would have to be 10 to 12 years older than previously thought?? Unlikely, I think, but perhaps just possible. If nothing else, though, it shows a precedent for a John being referred to, even in official records, as 'Johno' within the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi again! B

I couldn't repeat your 1871 search, are you able to clip the name and post it here, or give more details so I can?

In the actual pension records for the Scots Guards I can't find a John born in Pembrokeshire.
Here's a full list of men named Jones attested to the Scots Guards. There is only one man who was still serving in 88 and that's the John Jones b 1855, Cardiff, that I posted the details for earlier in the thread, PAGE 2 (additional details NOK-mother Anne, (Caerphilly)brother william,)


JOHN Thomas 1798 Bridge End, Glamorganshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES David 1801 Maentrog, Merionethshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES David 1841 Fishguard, Pembrokeshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Edward 1835 Newtown, Montgomeryshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Edward 1880 Ruabon, Denbighshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Edward James ? Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea VIEW
JONES Evan 1859 Pontypridd, Glamorganshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Harry ? Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea VIEW VIEW
JONES James 1837 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES John 1812 Dolgellan, Montgomeryshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES John 1839 Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES John 1846 Welshpool, Montgomeryshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES John 1855 Cardiff, Glamorganshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES John 1884 Carnarvon, Caernarvonshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Lewis 1869 Llandrchymedd, Anglesey Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Nathaniel 1791 Caermarthen, Carmarthenshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Richard ? Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Thomas ? Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES Thomas ? Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES William 1855 Pontypool, Monmouthshire Scots Guards WO97 Chelsea
JONES William 1881 Pwell?, Caernarvonshire

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

Are you able to help with father's (or next of kin) name for William HUGHES, just to narrow it down a bit? There's a lot of William Hughes's born in Welshpool, isn't it, look you!

I've found him in 1881, because the Scots Guards were stationed at St George's Barracks in Trafalgar Square when the census was taken. There are very few Welshmen, slightly more Irish, loads of English & (unsurprisingly!) many more Scots.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell.
His next of kin is his wife Ellen, so no father's name given. His two sons are also listed which may give a clue to a father?
His sons were William Harry and Arthur Cecil.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

While looking at the 1881 records, where the Scots Guards are posted in Trafalgar Square I noticed another guardsman, by the name of John JONES, aged 30 and born in Haverfordwest. In the 1861 census I've found a Haverfordwest John JONES, with a father of the same name, and whose mother was Mary. He's aged 10 and has a (twin?) sister of the same age, named Jane. There's nothing remarkable there really but:

in the 1871 census the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards are stationed in Chelsea Barracks and there's a guardsman by the name of JONES, born in Haverfordwest. Because of the way the photo has been taken, you can't read the whole of the forename, but it ends in 'no'. Unless there were two Haverfordwest Jones's serving in the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards, the name has to be 'Johno' or 'Jonno' Jones.

If Barnett's 'Johnto' is actually 'Johno', we could be onto something, but MJK would have to be 10 to 12 years older than previously thought?? Unlikely, I think, but perhaps just possible. If nothing else, though, it shows a precedent for a John being referred to, even in official records, as 'Johno' within the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

Are you able to help with father's (or next of kin) name for William HUGHES, just to narrow it down a bit? There's a lot of William Hughes's born in Welshpool, isn't it, look you!

I've found him in 1881, because the Scots Guards were stationed at St George's Barracks in Trafalgar Square when the census was taken. There are very few Welshmen, slightly more Irish, loads of English & (unsurprisingly!) many more Scots.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Evan

Hi Bridewell. John's father was named Evan. I can look up the next of kin of any of the soldiers from their files, it was just too time consuming to trawl all the files when I was making the original list.

Thanks, Debs,

There are two possibles, in the 1871 census, with Evan as a father in Denbighshire, believe it or not. One has a sister named Mary, of the right age & one doesn't.
In 1881, the same Mary is living with her parents in the same area.
In 1891 I can't find her, but there are a number of Mary Davies's who married in Denbigh during the 1880's. I guess she's a possible MJK but, as there's no hint of an Irish connection, an unlikely one, in my view.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Thomas DREW, in 1871, appears to be the son of Daniel DREW, Coal Miner, & wife Ann, with five siblings including Mary, aged 7.
In 1881 Daniel has become Dennis, but three of the the children are the same, so I suspect a transcription error by the census taker. The missing children are Amelia (who would be 22) and Mary (who would be 17). I can't find Mary in 1881, although she may be the Mary Drew who is working as a servant for a farmer in Trostrey. She reappears in 1891, living with her brother, Dan, in Aberystruth, so she is not MJK.

Regards, Bridewell

[Debra A]

There are (at least) four possible candidates for the John Davies born in 1868 in Denbigh, but none of them has a sister who looks a likely MJK in my view, so I won't pursue that one unless more detail - such as parents' forenames - becomes available,

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell. John's father was named Evan. I can look up the next of kin of any of the soldiers from their files, it was just too time consuming to trawl all the files when I was making the original list.

[Bridewell]

There are (at least) four possible candidates for the John Davies born in 1868 in Denbigh, but none of them has a sister who looks a likely MJK in my view, so I won't pursue that one unless more detail - such as parents' forenames - becomes available,

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

In 1871 Edward DAVIES is working as a General Servant for a farmer named Whittingham, living at Llandrino Hall. I suspect he's the son of Richard DAVIES, the gardener, and his wife, Harriet. They also have a daughter, called Mary, but she is aged 19 - so would be 36 in 1888.
In 1881, Mary is married, but still living with her parents, as Mary J JONES, aged 29. Immediately below her are Thomas D JONES (5) & Walter G P JONES (2) who are presumably her children. They are living at the Coach & Horses, Smithfield, Llandidloes, Montgomeryshire. This is a Scots Guard with a sister named 'Mary J'. She's a possible if you can accept MJK as being 36 when she died - & having had 2 children). I can't find them, with any degree of certainty in 1891, but Jones is not a helpful name to research in Wales!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Debs, are their any Scots guards in Wales with Irish names?
The Wales Scot guards appear to be natives, not the Irish immigrant class. I still can't get my head around the idea of a catholic joining the Scots guards, regimental loyalties were ingrained, just seems a bit odd.
Northern Ireland Scotland and Wales most of those would be Protestant and If brought up in Wales why not join a Welsh regiment, or ditto an Irish one, unless there was a Scottish connection ?
How were they recruited, so if you wanted to join the Scots Guards where would you apply if not in Scotland.
Yet there is no contemporary connection with Scotland and Mary Kelly.
Its another layer of mystery.
Miss Marple

Hi Miss M. as Bridwell has shown with his first choice to research, the Daltons were originally from Ireland. I don't think we should assume just going by the names. I noticed another with Iirish connections too.

There are a few Irish Catholic Scots Guards in the records as well.
As I put in another thread, soldiers were attested in different places, a lot in London.