Welsh born Scots Guards

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

I've been through the 1881 Llantarnam census from start to finish (140 odd pages) & the closest I can find to Dalton is the Doulton family, headed by Nicholas, which I referred to earlier. I'll check Cwmbran too, but if that produces a negative result, I don't know where else to look.

Regards, Bridewell.

I haven't been able to find him either, Bridewell.
Perhaps they had a family visit to Ireland in April 1881 or the records for their entry were damaged, unreadable or lost?
I believe you found Mr Dalton Snr. (can you tell I've forgotten his name at the moment) in 1891 so they didn't disappear forever.

Dr Hopper, thanks for the comments.
I'm still not too sure about Jho. Jones and that 1871 entry at the St George's barracks that Bridewell found. There are questions about the Scots Fusiliers versus Scots Guards that still probably need answering.

[DrHopper]

Amazing work guys. It is precisely this sort of thing that will get us closer to the truth... whatever that is! Data analysis and hard work!
So, if I understand correctly, we have 2 possible hits out of this pile of Welshmen! Not a bad return!
Neither of the 'hits' are particularly great, but both are tantalising enough to warrant further investigation.
1) Thomas Dalton - he has a sister, Mary Ann who was born in 1855, and there is an Irish connection.
2) Johnno Jones, who has a twin sister Jane, and whose mother was called Mary.

Very interesting.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

I've been through the 1881 Llantarnam census from start to finish (140 odd pages) & the closest I can find to Dalton is the Doulton family, headed by Nicholas, which I referred to earlier. I'll check Cwmbran too, but if that produces a negative result, I don't know where else to look.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Hi Livia and Bridewell.
Many soldiers pension records contain the details of their court Martials, desertion, imprisonment for bad conduct etc. Many were caught or confessed and re-enlisted and it all went on their pension records as they obviously forfeited money built up towards a pension.
There are also files which contain only 1 page , as opposed to the average 8-10 (some have 15+) pages of records. These are the men who usually bought their way out or deserted permanently and were never re-enlisted.
Death in service is a different matter, but FMP does have a database of soldiers who died in service if anyone wants to check that. I've only ever had a brief look at it to look for Henry Kelly.

[Bridewell]

Good Point

I've been following this thread with great interest
and you've both done a fantastic job and quite
quickly too! Thanks!

Debs, does a separate list exist for deserters, those
who have been court martialed, or those who have
been dishonorably discharged?

That's a good point. There might also be those who left before qualifying for a pension or, given the nature of the job, were killed whilst serving. i suspect that no such list will be preserved, but who knows?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Livia]

I've been following this thread with great interest
and you've both done a fantastic job and quite
quickly too! Thanks!

Debs, does a separate list exist for deserters, those
who have been court martialed, or those who have
been dishonorably discharged?

[Cogidubnus]

Debs/Colin

Deep respect to the pair of you working your way through this lot...let nobody ever say from now on that the Scots Guards connections haven't been totally researched!

All the very best

Dave

[Bridewell]

Dalton

Hi Bridewell.
I found Humphrey and family in the village of his birth. His father Edward was born in 1806 so had probably passed away by the time it came forHumph to give his next of kin. Besides brothers Morgan and Evan he had a sister named Joan b c 1852 so too old to be MJK and no Irish connections either. Humphrey's father was born, lived and died in Ystradowen.

Thanks for all your efforts with the other soldiers, I really appreciate it, sorry I haven't been able to research as many as I would have liked and help you out a bit more.

Hi Debs,

That's fine. I've enjoyed doing it. Much like you, I like to get value for money from what I'm subscribing to. I'm still struggling to find Thomas Dalton in either 1881 or 1891. In '91 he could presumably have been away with the Scots Guards, but I should be able to find him in '81. I suspect, as you suggested, that it may be a transcription error, so I'm now trawling through all the Llantarnam records trying to find him. What I have noticed is that virtually every other household has someone employed in an iron foundry, so I'm still not ruling this family out, especially with its Irish connections.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

I don't know if you've had better luck, but I can't find Humphrey MATTHEWS (or MATHEWS) anywhere. Interesting that his next-of-kin are brothers. Either the record is transcribed wrongly somewhere or he's enlisted under an alias?

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell.
I found Humphrey and family in the village of his birth. His father Edward was born in 1806 so had probably passed away by the time it came forHumph to give his next of kin. Besides brothers Morgan and Evan he had a sister named Joan b c 1852 so too old to be MJK and no Irish connections either. Humphrey's father was born, lived and died in Ystradowen.

Thanks for all your efforts with the other soldiers, I really appreciate it, sorry I haven't been able to research as many as I would have liked and help you out a bit more.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs et al,

Just done a bit more work on Thomas DALTON (1st name on the list):

In 1901 he was married to Cecelia (25) born York and living at 30, Stanley Street, Middlesbrough.

In 1911 he is a Steel Worker, living with Cecilia & 4 children back in Cwmbran, at 9, William Street. The children are Annie (8) born Middlesbro, James (4) born Sebastopol (Mon) i.e. (I think) a suburb of Pontypool, Thomas (6) & Cecilia (6m) both born Merthyr.

I still need to pinpoint him in 1881 & 1891 - the crucial time. I'm wondering if he met Cecilia whilst he was soldiering - perhaps in York.

Regards, Bridewell

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

Herbert POWELL's father, in the 1871 census, is William, a Railway Platelayer. His mother is Sarah. He has brothers, William (11) & Philip R (3). There is no mention of a sister.
In 1881 Herbert is an "Indoor servant" for a farmer's family by the name of Hillier, who also employ a Rosa Williams (18). All are Welsh. Rosa is the right age to be MJK and I suppose it's possible they kept in touch when he joined the army.
In 1891 he's lodging with the Clayton family in Newport. I can't find Rosa in 1891, but it's possible that she married in the 1880's - although I can't find a likely match. She has the wrong Place of Birth & completely the wrong name, but who knows? She worked with a man who joined the Scots Guards.

Is that the lot, Debs? If so, I'd say that Denton was the most promising of an unlikely bunch - or the Johno whose sister is 12 years too old - but I'm not optimistic about any of them really.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Griffith OWEN, in 1861, was living with his mother & elder brother in his grandmother's house (Jane JONES) in the village of his birth.

In 1871 he's working as a tailor, still in the same village.

In the 1880's, presumably he was soldiering somewhere.

In 1891 he's a married man,,back in Denbighshire & back tailoring. No Irish connection shows up, although - just as an aside - his 1 year old daughter is a Mary Jane.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs,

I don't know if you've had better luck, but I can't find Humphrey MATTHEWS (or MATHEWS) anywhere. Interesting that his next-of-kin are brothers. Either the record is transcribed wrongly somewhere or he's enlisted under an alias?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

The most likely candidate to be Lewis JONES appears in the 1871 & 1881 census records and has a sister, Anne, of the right age. That's all there is though. Anglesey is unlikely, father is Benjamin and a shoe-maker, and there is no hint of an Irish connection. I think he's out.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Further to the above:

Unfortunately there are any number of Mary Jane Williams's who married in Swansea in the late 1870's 1880's, so she's impossible to identify with certainty. With no Irish links, I don't think she's a likely candidate.

Regards, Bridewell.