The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[Livia]

Hi Jason,

It means that the Kellys listed on the 1891-92 page
of the Springfield IL City Directory that I posted can't
be the Kelly family that Chris' contact said emigrated
to the US shortly after her murder.

According to the bio Debs found, the Springfield Kellys
arrived in the US in the late 1840s and had no
children that lived so that discounts them too.

Hi Richard,

Do you know what the term of enlistment was for
the Reserves?

thanks,

Liv

[jason_c]

I'm going to post information posted by Debra Arif, received from Livia, at JtR Forums, and my reply which will help bring people up to date. Things don't seem to add up.



"The father afterward brought his children to America in 1849 and settled in cincinnati, Ohio, where he worked at the carpenter's trade, . . ."

That information does not agree with the information that Chris gave us that the family came to the United States after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly.

Chris

Chris,

Does this mean the photograph's in question have nothing to do with Mary Kelly of Millers Court? Or simply that the family researched by Debra Arif/Livia are not related to the Miller's Court Mary Kelly?

Its late here and my brains not fully functioning.

[ChrisGeorge]

I'm going to post information posted by Debra Arif, received from Livia, at JtR Forums, and my reply which will help bring people up to date. Things don't seem to add up.

Here's some further biographical information on the John J Kelly and his wife Bridget found by Livia:

PAST AND PRESENT OF THE CITY OF SPRINGFIELD AND SANGAMON COUNTY ILLINOIS
By Joseph Wallace, M. A.
of the Springfield Bar
The S. J. Clarke Publishing Co., Chicago, IL
1904

JOHN J. KELLY. - John J. Kelly, now deceased, was well known in Springfield because of his business connections and his activity in political circles. He was born in Ireland, December 23, 1848, a son of John James and Margaret (Porter) Kelly, who were likewise natives of the Emerald Isle, in which country the mother died. The father afterward brought his children to America in 1849 and settled in cincinnati, Ohio, where he worked at the carpenter's trade, engaging in business there as a contractor and builder until his death.
John J. Kelly acquired but a common school education, pursuing his studies in cincinnati. In 1866, when but eighteen years of age, he came to Springfield and secured a position as iron molder in a foundry. He was thus employed for nine years, and then, with the capital he had managed to save from his earnings, he purchased the Jefferson Hotel at No. 700 and 702 East Washington street, remaining proprietor of that establishment up to the time of his demise.
Mr. Kelly was married in 1876 to Miss Bridgit Cahill, a native of Ireland and a daughter of William and Margaret (Cunningham) Cahill, who were likewise born on the isle of Erin and came to America in early life. The resided for one year in New York city, but afterward removed to Springfield, Illinois, becoming early residents of this city. Mr. Cahill established a grocery store, which he conducted with success until his life's labors were ended in death. His wife also died in Springfield. Unto Mr. and Mrs. Kelly was born but one child and it died unnamed in infancy.
Mr. Kelly took a very active interest in politics, usually giving his support to the Democracy, but at local elections he voted for the men whom he considered best qualified for office, regardless of party affiliations. He was alderman of his ward for two years and was chairman of the Democratic central committee at the time of his death. Socially he was connected with the Foresters, with the Western Catholic Union and with the Catholic Knights. Both he and his wife were members of the Catholic church, and in that faith he died, December 23, 1890. Mrs. Kelly owns a beautiful home where she resides, at No. 518 South Seventh street, and also has other property in Springfield. She is quite prominent in society circles and has many warm friends in this city.

"The father afterward brought his children to America in 1849 and settled in cincinnati, Ohio, where he worked at the carpenter's trade, . . ."

That information does not agree with the information that Chris gave us that the family came to the United States after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly.

Chris

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
As I posted earlier, the query is, what is Henry John Joseph doing in a family picture, if indeed the photo was taken in the U.S.A, he was in the Scots guards in 1888 based in Ireland/Cardiff[ two accounts vary], and would have as per norm signed on for a fixed term usually 21 years, and unless he was invalidated out, or bought himself out for a large sum , would not have been in America.
Was this family picture snapped in the USA?, or back in the UK , whereas my point would not be relevant.
Regards Richard.

[Henry Flower]

Absolutely Phil, I agree. At the moment, despite Chris's excellent efforts, we simply don't have enough to make this story checkable. As it stands it's not sufficiently falsifiable.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Chris

I think that perhaps what surprises me about this thread and the question of the two photographs is that we are only talking about the images and not the genealogy of the family that is pictured. We have discussed on innumerable threads in the past the specific genealogies of various Kelly families that could have been candidates to be the family of the woman who was killed and mutilated in 13 Miller's Court, and you yourself have done research on such families. But what about this family? What does census and other information tell us about them? Is there evidence that they did have a family member named Mary Jane Kelly who lived until 1888 but who cannot be traced later than that?

Best regards

Chris George

Hello Chris G,

I am in complete agreement with you. Whats the genealogy and what are the details of the story? Questions that I raised near the start of the 'sister' thread. I cant quite understand how the family member would know whìch brother was which without knowing the names of the other brothers. I would hate a hoax but the story needs to be known in order that the photos can be checked against it and genealogically too.

Best wishes

Phil

[Semper_Eadem]

Greetings,

That is too bad the Kellys in Springfield weren't our Kellys as Bridget and Henry, John J are common names as is the surname Kelly, I think that perhaps the family name wasn't Kelly and we should look under the christian names. It's a pity they weren't in Springfield Illinois as I had relatives there is the 1890s.

Regarding those lovely slanted/squinted shaped eyes, I have those type of eyes myself, my grandma called 'em sloe eyes.

[Livia]

Well, as usual, there's going to be problems with that
if this is the correct Kelly family.

Even if they arrived in the US sometime in 1890,
there is no 1890 census, it was destroyed in a fire
in the Commerce Building in Washington DC in the 30s.

So our next best option is the 1900 census, but again
if this is the correct Kelly family, they're already scattered
and not living in the same household. And if Mrs Kelly died
prior to 1900 and/or Bridget junior married prior to 1900,
the problem is compounded. That leaves Henry or Johnto
or possibly even Harry, without a birthyear to help identifty
him.

I think the best bet is to look again at the ship's manifests
and include the Canadian Border Crossings and hope that the
family traveled together as a group and not come over separately
as their passage was earned.

Liv

Edited to add:

Deb has conclusively proven that this John J and
Bridget Kelly emigrated in 1849, so cannot be
the Kellys that arrived in 1890-91.

Thanks, Deb. You saved a lot of fruitless searching.

*sigh*

Back to the ship's manifests.

[Chris Scott]

I have today received an e-mail from the lady who sent me these images.
The only piece of information which I hadn't seen before is as follows:
"Bridget Kelly, the mother - the old lady in the family photograph - had a very unusual maiden name. It is a long time since I was told about this and I have never found it written down anywhere but as far as i can remember from way back, her maiden name was something like Mazudon or Mazudron. I can't be entirely sure about this as it was a long time ago and I don't have the best memory in the world. I hope this might be of some use."

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Livia

Fine research, Livia. And now we just wait to tie up the loose ends with any other genealogical information, e.g., census information from Ireland, England, and the United States, which might prove that this is the correct Kelly family and the correct Mary Jane Kelly. Fascinating stuff.

Cheers

Chris

[Livia]

Thanks Chris for giving me the go ahead.







This is the Springfield Illinois City Directory for 1891-92.



Of interest:



Mrs Bridget Kelly widow of John J.
a Miss Bridget Kelly domestic
a Henry Kelly shoemaker

and two more male Kelly's possibly related living at the same address:

a John F Kelly boilermaker at 1109 South 13th
a Thomas Kelly wks S Iron Works res at 1109 South 13th


It is the only instance I've found of a Mrs Bridget Kelly,

a Miss Bridget Kelly and a Henry Kelly in the same document.

I've looked at several hundred US census pages, ship's

manifests and passport applications (some of which have

pictures just prior to WWI), and this is the closest I've

come to finding that particular grouping.



So if this is the correct Kelly family, Bob Hinton was

correct about the mid-west.



What do you think?

[Livia]

Hi Limehouse,

You're absolutely right about family resemblances.

My cousin is the image of our great great grandmother's
brother. My cousin was born in 1960, the great great
uncle was born in the 1860s.


Chris, thanks for answering my question about how the family
came to know MJK's story and their possible relationship to
her.

What is your opinion regarding anything we might find that
could possibly relate to this Kelly family? Is it ok to post
or would you rather it be disseminated privately? I think
I might have found something relevant, but I don't want
to jeopardize your relationship with the family.

Thanks,

Liv

[Limehouse]

Isn't it the norm to name the oldest child after the parent? For example, the eldest son is named after the father. Why would the youngest daughter be named after the mother and not the oldest? They couldn't know that they would have another daughter to name after the mother.

Hi Errata,

I think the oldest daughter was often named after the father's mother or the mother's mother and any subsequent daughthers would then be named after the mother or one of her sisters. i found this to be true when i carried out my own family history.

Also, in Catholic families, the oldest daughter was often named Mary.

With reference to the clothes, and the style looking older than the 1890s, I think, as a few people have mentioned, that these people would not have had a lot of money to buy clothes very regularly and, if these clothes were their 'best clothes' - say for weddings or special occasions, they would not have been worn very often and would have lasted longer than everyday clothes - thus they would not have been thrown away even if they were ten or so years old.

It is true that the photo of 'Mary' does not resemble very closely the rest of the family. However, this can happen in families. My cousin and I share a grandfather. My cousin is over six feet tall with dark curly hair and resembles several of my grandafther's brothers. However, his sisters are all small and fair like me - and we look more like our grandfather who was also small and fair. Perhaps Mary resembled her cousins more than her brothers and sister? Also, my sister's youngest son has often been mistaken for my son but my own son looks like my husband's brother! If you lined up my nephew, my son and myself and asked someone to point out my son, they would almost certainly select my nephew!

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Steve
Thanks for your message
1) Yes - both images are from the same source
2) A hoax is always a possibility and one I have not dismissed. All I can say is that these images were sent to me nearly two years ago and it is only recently that the lady who sent them gave permission for me to post them. . . .

Hi Chris

I think that perhaps what surprises me about this thread and the question of the two photographs is that we are only talking about the images and not the genealogy of the family that is pictured. We have discussed on innumerable threads in the past the specific genealogies of various Kelly families that could have been candidates to be the family of the woman who was killed and mutilated in 13 Miller's Court, and you yourself have done research on such families. But what about this family? What does census and other information tell us about them? Is there evidence that they did have a family member named Mary Jane Kelly who lived until 1888 but who cannot be traced later than that?

Best regards

Chris George

[Errata]

Isn't it the norm to name the oldest child after the parent? For example, the eldest son is named after the father. Why would the youngest daughter be named after the mother and not the oldest? They couldn't know that they would have another daughter to name after the mother.