The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[lynn cates]

no mention

Hello Greg. If so, one wonders why that fact escaped the police and newspapers.

Cheers.
LC

[greg]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but could the reason that the Kelly family didn't attend the funeral or could not be contacted by the police was that they were already in America?

Just a thought.

Greg

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

I can of course accept the thoughts of innocent reason for absence- no sign of heartlessness- but I am concerned with the 'why now' aspect in all of this, I admit.

Kindly

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys.
I think we can assume that the entire Kelly family has been rather elusive to say the least, as for the strenuous efforts..made by the police, they obviously succeeded in tracing brother Henry?, as Mrs McCarthy clearly knew who she parcelled up poor Mary's belongings for, and where they were being sent.
I am just making a personal observation, based on my interpretation of height, and it is not that inconceivable, despite lack of press reports, aided by respect from the police, that a family member such as Henry may have been have been given compassionate leave to attend, just because he was concerned about his career prospects ,does not necessarily imply heartlessness.
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

I can't say for sure, Phil. I think the police said they hadn't found anyone. I think there was a Press report that the family were coming, and then another report that they weren't! Debs would know.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Richard

If a family member attended, then he wasn't mentioned in the Press, and nor was any floral tribute he might have left.

Hello Robert,

I think I am correct in saying that somewhere the police themselves say that no family had been found despite strenuous efforts?

Best wishes

Phil

[Robert]

Hi Richard

If a family member attended, then he wasn't mentioned in the Press, and nor was any floral tribute he might have left.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Slightly off topic, but a bearing on this discussion.
There are a few posts on JTR Forums, about the possible height of Kelly's eldest brother Henry[ reflecting on the family photograph], and it released another speculative thought.
We assume that no one of the Kelly family attended the funeral of Mary, but we have no identity, of the other man besides Barnett who attended, who is shown in the graveside sketch, made on the day.
We know eight mourners attended, six women, and two men, on of the men was Joe Barnett, who was the other?
A representative of McCarthy who?
If one looks at the sketch , one can clearly see the six women present , and two men, the one to the fore apparently bending somewhat, to lay what looks like a floral tribute.
When I saw this sketch many years ago, my first impression was that the man to the front was Father Columban[ not certain of the spelling], who was described as a giant of a man, however this certainly not the case, not dressed correctly.
But the figure to the fore, certainly looks to be of a tall statue, [ unless my eyes are playing tricks] I even had the notion that the 6'7'' Fleming may have attended, until now..
If one looks at it in perspective, it does appear that the figure laying the tribute, it taking pride of place over Barnett, which a close relation would.
Questions ..Was Henry Kelly a tall man, and did he attend the funeral , and do we have him on a sketch, which can be found on this site, did a member of the family attend after all.?
Food for thought,, my brain is working overtime...
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
It has always been assumed that the brother in the army was Henry..alias Johnto, so it would be surprising , IF the picture is authentic [and the information to boot also] that he could enlist in the army under a false name, so the mystery is why is he not listed, was he struck off , and if so why?,its like the rest of the family ..at least till now[ hopefully] very illusive.
They certainly went to a great deal of trouble to shun any publicity.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Hi Richard, the pension records for the Scots Guards have survived though and there is no Henry Kelly among them. So, maybe he didn't make it to pension-but there isn't a Henry Kelly on the Muster roles for 1888 either, which is more telling perhaps? Did Fiona also say Mary's brother's name was definitely Henry?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Debra,
We can only go from an 'oral' history account from McCarthy's great grand-daughter, which suggests that initially her brother Henry was contacted via the Scots guards, which would imply that either there was a letter amongst her belongings , or Barnett informed the police of the details, [ he was aware of the battalion].
It appears that although accepting the belongings, he was somewhat shy of it becoming known that he was related to the victim, and it is likely that the shame was to much to bear for not only him , but for the entire family,
however it would be informative if their were any remaining records of one Henry, John , Joseph Kelly's discharge records ,but I fear not.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Hi all,
The subject of young army pensioners has come up before with Bowyer research. According to the Find My Past site-Soldiers were eligible for a pension after 12 years of service, so relatively young men could be pensioned out.

The Scots Guards were in Dublin at the time of MJKs murder, I've seen it in the papers and in the pension records of a member of the 2nd Batallion Scots Guards which documents their whereabouts. If Henry didn't come forward about MJK for fear of ruining his army career then it does seem odd that he didn't spend many years afterwards in the army, as far as I recall Chris was told this picture was taken in the US.

[curious4]

Not a furniture expert, but don t those chairs bear a resemblance to Shaker chairs? If that is the case, it points to america. I must say that Johnto certainly sits very upright compared to the others (military bearing?).

Regards,
C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If Henry ''Johnto' was in that photograph [ front row left] and that picture was taken in the US, it would appear that he was no longer in the army, even as such a young man.
As for the reserves.
According to Ms kendall-lane[ Fiona] her great grandmother McCarthy's wife parcelled up Kelly's personal belongings and forwarded them on to a rather reluctant brother , who was concerned the knowledge of being a brother of a victim of the Ripper,may harm his army prospects.
That being the case , it would appear that he held hopes of promotion, making it sound like he was career concious, so was likely to have been in full time enlistment.
Naturally it goes to say if the picture was taken in the UK, then the army reference is irrelevant on leave etc] but in the USA, at such a young age would suggest he left the army by one means or another[ end of service period, invalidity , or bought out]...the latter being the most likely , ie to emigrate with his family[ get away from it attitude]
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

I'm not sure there was a different enlistment for the reserves.

"The Act of 1870 allowed a soldier to choose to spend time in the reserves rather than the regulars and be paid fourpence a day, in return for a short period of training each year and an obligation to serve when called up. Men now enlisted for a maximum term of twelve years, but usually for six. The minimum length of service varied, but on discharge a soldier would now remain with the reserves for the remainder of the twelve-year term."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardwell_reforms

Its a Wiki article, so all caveats apply...

Regards, Jon S.