The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

[Cogidubnus]

ó Madhigáin

Livia

I can hardly believe this but...

Take a look at the second entry on this link...and bear in mind where MJK was supposed to come from:-

http://www.clansandnames.org/forum/read1-763.html

Best wishes

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Tricky!

Were Irish names spelled like that pre-20th c?

Hi Lynn

Pardon me please for butting in, but this is something we researched a little in relation to my wife's family tree...

Despite the (in some part voluntary!) suppression of the native gaelic which, (as I guess you're driving at), reached it's peak in the 1850s, in the far west of Ireland it still survived and to some extent thrived...

In fact there's a wikipedia (ok yes I know!) item which suggests that at the relevant time to Mary's birth, there were large areas of Limerick in which 25% of the population still used it as their native tongue...in the deeper Gaeltacht the proportion was far higher...

(Of course there was something of a revival in the later 19th century as part of the Fenian movement, but this didn't really start to gain real ground until after independence.)

So I guess the answer to your question is (depending on where exactly you're looking) maybe!

Depends to what extent the RC Church's official policy was agreed and complied with in the rural West of Ireland...

Best wishes

Dave

[Bridewell]

Why?

Why on earth so, Bridewell? Surely nothing should surprise us about the names that are uncovered in genealogical research.

Best regards

Chris

Hi Chris,

Why so? I've just searched Ancestry for "Henry Johnto" which produces only one exact match - in the USA - and in 1892. That surprises me. I thought there might be more than one.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

pre-20th c?

Hello Bridie. Welcome to the boards. That's an interesting thought.

Were Irish names spelled like that pre-20th c?

Cheers.
LC

[Livia]

Hi Bridie and welcome to the forum.

Sorry, I should have posted this over here earlier:

Today, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Poster

Hi ho

The unusual maiden name was just possibly a Gaelic name badly translated upon entry to the US or else anglicised. The "Ma" syllabel at the start being an indication that it was probably "Mc" or something..and the last one "un" or similar being th eleast likely to have been misheard.

So for example... Mac Ghille Dhuinn is not a million miles away phonetically.

Nor is.. MacGioban
Or MacGiolligan
or MacMiadhachain
or MacKaughan
and so on and so forth.

Finding a Bridget Kelly nee Mac/Mc something with an "n" and the end would of course be nice.

P

Hi Mr Poster,

I took your advice and found a rootsweb page with
Old Gaelic names and their Anglicized equivalents.

This looks promising:

Ó Madaidhin or Matudain- Madden - East Galway - Uí Maine tribe

It was the closest to Mazudon/Mazudron* I could find (not
being entirely sure what the "z or zh" sounds like in Gaelic).

Liv

*Chris Scott mentioned earlier that the lady who owns
these pictures said that she remembered that Mrs
Bridget Kelly's maiden name was something like
Mazudon/Mazudron.

[Cogidubnus]

A very good thought too Bridie...welcome!

Dave

[Bridie O'Reilly]

Just a thought?

Hi
I am new to this so please do not shoot me down in flames!

I assume this has been done but if not - has anyone checked the baptism records for Mary Jane. Either in Ireland or Wales? I was born in Ireland but registered here and baptised here. My Mother and her brothers, sisters and parents used the English variant of there names here but were baptised with their Irish names.
My Mother was Anna Mary here - but she was baptised Aine Maire. Though her family called her Maura.

So Mary Jane Kelly might have been baptised as Maire (Maura) Siobhan O Ceallaigh (or O' Caidhla). The names do change depending on which region you are from.

My Godmother lived here for over 20 years before she needed a passport. When she searched for her birth records she had to go to her church from home and found that she was 3 years older than she thought she was. A bit of a downer for her! Three years younger would have made more sense - and she now has a toy boy of a husband.

As I said - just a thought?

[ChrisGeorge]

Strange to find a Henry Johnto in the USA though, don't you think?

Why on earth so, Bridewell? Surely nothing should surprise us about the names that are uncovered in genealogical research.

Best regards

Chris

[Bridewell]

Give Me Time!

Bridewell, bad news : you haven't searched Africa yet.

I haven't finished Europe yet! Strange to find a Henry Johnto in the USA though, don't you think?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

Bridewell, bad news : you haven't searched Africa yet.

[Bridewell]

Brother Henry (Johnto) can't be found in the Army rolls because his name wasn't Kelly.

Hi Semper,

I thought, for a moment I'd found something relevant to this, but not sure now

There is a "Henry Johnto" (& wife Lena) shown as living in Seattle, Washington in the 1892 census. The problem is that the nationality is shown as "Ger", which presumably alludes to Germany. (It's ditto'd in Lena'a case.) Germany sounds a likely place of birth for someone called Lena, but an unlikely one for someone called "Henry Johnto".

We know that Henry was known to his comrades as "Johnto" and I've always taken that to be a nickname, but I guess it could have been an alias surname? Thinking laterally here, did Barnett say that Mary had claimed to be born in Limerick Ireland or just Limerick? It couldn't have been Lembruch, could it? I think it's probably too far-fetched, but I'll do a bit more digging. After all we've looked everywhere else! (Keller anyone?)

Regards, Bridewell

[Cogidubnus]

Tenterhooks

Receipts for witness expenses paid that show a witness was generously paid for his 'time' rather than loss of earnings or related to his earnings.

Ah well Debs we weren't really THAT interested anyway were we?



Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

Howdy All,

Perhaps if this is Mary's family and a picture of her then perhaps the families name was not Kelly and perhaps Mary's name wasn't Mary Kelly either. If I was in Mary's shoes I would be giving an alias for myself and my family.

1 Mary Kelly was a common alias for Prostitutes

2. Brother Henry (Johnto) can't be found in the Army rolls because his name wasn't Kelly.

3. We can't find the Kelly family.

I know that Mary's stuff was sent by Mrs McCarthy but perhaps Mary's brother went and retrieved Mary's belongings so Mrs McCarthy did not have to send them by mail.

Just some quick theories.

Geo~

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Great post.

"Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files . . . I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer . . ."

You've put your finger on the problem.

Given the level of thoroughness and professionalism employed in the Buswell case, the Ripper investigation appears shoddy and chaotic, with the Metropolitan Police apparently falling prey to all manner of spurious leads from local butchers, organ-scouting doctors and assorted nutbags to opportunist informants from as far afield as Vienna, whilst at the same time diverting valuable detectival resources to amateur theorists such as Larkins.

In 1888 Scotland Yard was HMG's security apparatus. It was the CID, 'FBI' and Secret Service all rolled into one. Warren the martinet may have been gullible, but Monro and Anderson certainly weren't stupid—far, far from it—and to believe that this pathetic state of affairs was brought about by an effete barrister or a masturbating Polish Jew is completely ludicrous and an insult to our intelligence.

For as yet unknown reasons, somebody was capitalizing on the politics of confusion.

Our problem is that we have become far too enamoured by the concept of JtR to remain objective in our investigation into the mystery of the Whitechapel murders, to the extent that there are whole areas of research which remain decidedly off-limits.

Regards,

Simon

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ben.
Over to the thread which name escapes me,
Regards Richard.