The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by Livia View Post

    According to a family tree on Ancestry, Patrick Madden
    (b. Ireland, son of Timothy) married Mary Donovan
    (born 17 Feb 1832 in Manister, Limerick) in December
    of 1852.
    Hi Liv, thanks. There's something a bit odd here then. In the 1901 Welsh census Mary Madden is shown as born in Cork c 1836.
    She's living alone at Nicholas Street Pontypool and is a widow, this address fits in with the army records of her son Timothy, where's she's named as next of kin. Son Michael was also in the same regiment, 3rd battalion Welsh Borderers, but he bought his way out after 3 months. Both her sons joined up in 1892. Timothy is shown on the 1901census at Woolwich where he's in the Military Band.

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  • Livia
    replied
    Hi Debs, Cog

    According to a family tree on Ancestry, Patrick Madden
    (b. Ireland, son of Timothy) married Mary Donovan
    (born 17 Feb 1832 in Manister, Limerick) in December
    of 1852. They had the following children:

    Mary Madden 1855 –

    James Madden 1857 – 1878

    Johanna Madden 1860 –

    Catherine Elizabeth Madden 1863 –

    Michael Madden 1867 – 1959

    Timothy Madden 1870 – 1947


    Patrick died in 1881, Mary in 1903.

    So it's Johanna, not Susannah as I posted earlier.

    There are no Kellys or a Bridget Madden listed in the
    family.

    Why John Kelly is recorded in the middle of this family,
    I don't know. Usually lodgers are at the bottom.

    Liv
    Last edited by Livia; 04-06-2012, 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Hi Liv, Dave
    I think she was still alive in 1891, she just hadn't aged any!

    MADDEN, Mary Head Married F 50 1841 Charwoman
    Ireland
    MADDEN, Michael Son Single M 24 1867 Labourer Iron Works
    Abersychan
    Monmouthshire
    MADDEN, Thimothy Son Single M 21 1870 Labourer Iron Works
    Abersychan
    Monmouthshire

    Address:
    9, Gibson Lane, Trevethin With Pontypool, Pontypool

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  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    Hi Livia

    Thanks for posting the census page...

    Looks like two sons of hers, plus one of his still at home...plus his daughter...could well be an exiled Irish widow and exiled Irish widower set up together, with some kids living away from home - doesn't even preclude a later reunification of the family for emmigration purposes...

    I can't make out the place of birth of some of the children...looks like New something...

    If this Mary Madden is the one who died in 1881, Bridget could well be a sister, a sister in law or such that he subsequently set up with?

    Just thoughts...

    Dave

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  • Livia
    replied
    Hi Debs,

    It could be that Mary Madden was some relation to Bridget
    Kelly, maybe a sister in law?

    I believe Mary Madden died in October of 1881, there is
    a death listed for Trevthin, Monmouthshire.

    Liv

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Even if the lady who provided the photograph wasn't certain about Mrs. Kelly's maiden name, hence the discussion about Madden, she seemed pretty certain her first name was Bridget and not Mary?

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  • Livia
    replied
    Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
    Only one son living at home at the time of the census...

    We only know, I think, that there was at least the one sister - it is also possible that perhaps Susannah died twixt the census and the Barnett period...or prior to the photo if we dare to link the two!

    Dave
    Easier to discuss if you can actually see the page....

    Leave a comment:


  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    Also, it's heavily over-written, but it looks like Mr Kelly
    is a widower.
    Could well be, if Kelly's been married before and they're shacked up as man and wife...

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    If I were searching...

    Northpoint, Pennsylvania, near Bethlehem, PA, famous for it's iron works.
    Yes Good Michael, I think that's where I would look first

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by Livia View Post
    Hi Chris,

    If it would not involve too much hassle on your part,
    would it be possible to cut the portion of the family
    picture that contains the fiddler and post it next to
    the picture of James Kelly, Broadmoor escapee and fiddle
    player, on this thread?

    And if it's not asking too much, also the picture of James
    Kelly as an old man next to the elder Mr John Kelly?

    Might make for an interesting comparison.

    Both pictures of James Kelly are in Tully's book,
    Prisoner 1167. I can scan them and send them
    to you if that would help.

    Thanks,

    Liv
    Very interesting, Liv. I can see what you mean, definitely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    But according to the family, there were only two daughters,
    Mary and Bridget and the Madden/Kelly census page of 1881
    shows a third daughter, Susannah age 13. Also, there's only
    one son, James aged 15 and there should be at least three
    more.
    Only one son living at home at the time of the census...

    We only know, I think, that there was at least the one sister - it is also possible that perhaps Susannah died twixt the census and the Barnett period...or prior to the photo if we dare to link the two!

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • The Good Michael
    replied
    Northpoint, Pennsylvania, near Bethlehem, PA, famous for it's iron works.

    Mike

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  • Livia
    replied
    Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
    Now that, David, really is interesting...

    Dave

    But according to the family, there were only two daughters,
    Mary and Bridget and the Madden/Kelly census page of 1881
    shows a third daughter, Susannah age 13. Also, there's only
    one son, James aged 15 and there should be at least three
    more. Also, it's heavily over-written, but it looks like Mr Kelly
    is a widower.
    Last edited by Livia; 04-06-2012, 04:41 PM. Reason: additional info

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  • Livia
    replied
    Hi Chris,

    If it would not involve too much hassle on your part,
    would it be possible to cut the portion of the family
    picture that contains the fiddler and post it next to
    the picture of James Kelly, Broadmoor escapee and fiddle
    player, on this thread?

    And if it's not asking too much, also the picture of James
    Kelly as an old man next to the elder Mr John Kelly?

    Might make for an interesting comparison.

    Both pictures of James Kelly are in Tully's book,
    Prisoner 1167. I can scan them and send them
    to you if that would help.

    Thanks,

    Liv

    Leave a comment:


  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    Interesting that John Kelly, 50 year old Labourer at Iron Works near Cwmavon is living with a Mary Maddon on the 1881 census.
    Now that, David, really is interesting...

    Dave

    Leave a comment:

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