2ND battalion Scot's guards

[lynn cates]

Kelley

Hello Dr. H. Thanks for posting these.

I wonder if "Kelley" is worth the bother?

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Greetings all

So, my notes are not copious
I did make a list of the relevant names and their cognates in various (relevant) languages... can't remember why I made a list of those of Henry off the top of my head - some line of thought or other! Here:
EDIT! Henry = her brother's name - one of those days!

JAMES
Irish = Seamus, Shamus
English = Jacob, Jacobus, Jakob, Jake, Jack, Jackie, James, Jamie, Jim, Jimmy, Jay
Welsh = Iago, Jago
Scots = Hamish
Latin = Iacobus, Iacomus

HENRY
Irish = Annraoi, Anraí, Einrí
Welsh = Parry, Harri
Scots = Eanraig
English = Heriot, Herriot, Harris, Harrison, Henderson, Aymerick, Emery, Hal, Hank
Latin = Henricus, Aenrichus

JOHN
English = John, Ewan, Shawn, Johnny, Jack, Ian, Evan
Irish = Seán, Shaun, Shane/Seaghan, Eoin/Eoghan
Scots = Iain, Ian
Welsh = Ioannes, Ianto, Ioan
Latin = Ioan, Siôn, Ewan, Evan, Ifan

MARY
English = Mary, Mae, Maleah, Mamie, Maree, Mariah, Mariam, Maryam, Marian, Marie, Mariel, Marigold, Marilena, Marilene, Marilou, Marilyn, Marinda, Marion, Marisole, Marissa, Marla, Marleen, Marlena, Marlene, Marlyn, Marnie, Maryann, Maryanne, Marybeth, Marylou, Marylu, Marylyn, Maryvonne, Maura, Maureen, Maurene, Maurine, May, Mayme, Merilyn, Merrilyn, Maria, Miriam, Mo, Moira, Mollie, Molly, Mora, Moreen, Myriam, Marie

Irish = Maurene, Maureen, Maura, Maira, Maurine, Minnie, Moira, Moreen, Máire, Mairenn, Máirín, Muire, Moyra, Moya, Mare, Mallaidh

Scots = Maura, Màiri, Mhairi, Mhairie, Mhari, Minnie, Moire, Moyra, Morag

Welsh = Mair, Mairwen

Manx = Marion, Mariod, Mariot, Moirrey, Moreen

Latin = Maria


My notes tell me that I think Mary Kelly was of Welsh birth (she allegedly spoke welsh, her name, though Irish in origin, was common in Wales, especially around the coal-mining areas, her father was allegedly a miner in Wales, her alleged husband was named Davies (Welsh name) and was killed in a mining disaster - the mining connection again). I still think that this is a very real possibility, and certainly one worth exploring. Also according to my notes, she was alleged to have had an argument with her brother over her lifestyle in the period leading up to her murder.

I remember spending a bit of time searching for various clues and possible sitings on Ancestry in the Welsh census records, searching for a Mary and a John (or cognates thereof) as siblings (with or without the surname Kelly) in any of the mining areas, and I also looked for mining disasters small and large in the time period (there are a scary amount!) as a clue, and I seem to remember finding some possibles, but nothing definite... just hints. However, I have lost the paper that was in the file - 2 house moves since this time last year. It's around here somewhere, but I'll be buggered if I can find it.

Anyway, when I do, I'll post the possibles.

This is my two-pennorth, hope it helps, because I actually think that this way lies MJK, buried under a mound of supposition, myth, lies and half-truths. If we ignore all the strands of "she lived in France, etc" for a moment, and brush away all extraneous unlikely epehemera, we have a coherent picture of a woman born in Ireland (possibly) but certainly grew up in Wales, married, strong connections with mining, and was widowed, moved to London, became an 'unfortunate' but dreamt of so much more, and ended up horrifically murdered. Sad really.

MJK was Welsh (he yells, and then ducks for cover)

[lynn cates]

bayonet

Hello Dr. H. Thanks for the willingness to share your notes.

Regarding Martha and a "bayonet," you might wish to pop round to the "Tabram blood spatter" thread and get in on the fun.

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

Ha!
About a year ago, I had a similar idea... even to the extent of pondering the relationship between brother and sister, his disapproval of his sister's life, and his access to 'bayonets' (think Martha Tabram)... food for thought.
Nothing came of the initial burst of enthusiasm as real life took over, but I think I have some notes jotted down somewhere which I will endeavour to post.

[lynn cates]

single name

Hello Debs. The entries look like single names. Unusual, but worth a go.

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Debra.
Quite true, its just that many people write "to" for "too" today, so it is quite common.

It is, no denying that, a good friend of mine does the very same thing. So the mistake would be from someone other than Barnett in that case?

Assume we accept "Yan-to" (Ivan), and because this does not appear to be Irish, then we might also have to accept the Kelly's did live in Wales for a time. I know some have doubted it.

It would have to mean that his Welsh friends gave him that name? Or it would mean that MJK's story could not have been that accurate surely? She moved to Wales when young after being born in Ireland. Ianto would need to be much younger than MJK for his parents to have chosen a traditional Welsh name for him after their move to Wales?

But, at the end of the day, be it either a misspelling "to" for "too", or mishearing, "Johnto" for "Yanto", it seem's pointless to look for either in military records, or a Welsh census.

But if it was something like Johnjoe,then it's worth looking as this name does appear as a name in itself in the Irish census, that's all I'm saying:

[Wickerman]

Jon, it might be a very good possibility to you, but it's certainly not a given, is it?

Debra.
Quite true, its just that many people write "to" for "too" today, so it is quite common.
Assume we accept "Yan-to" (Ivan), and because this does not appear to be Irish, then we might also have to accept the Kelly's did live in Wales for a time. I know some have doubted it.

I'd be interested if there is a tradition in Wales which connects "Ivan" with a "Henry"?
But, at the end of the day, be it either a misspelling "to" for "too", or mishearing, "Johnto" for "Yanto", it seem's pointless to look for either in military records, or a Welsh census.

I was thinking that maybe Barnett did mishear and that the name could be something like the Irish 'Johnjoe' ?

Ah, like my grandfather, PC John Joseph Smyth, Dublin Metropolitan Police.
I don't recall him ever being called Johnjoe, but no doubt some were.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Johnto, too.

Hello Debs. That was my take. Were it "Johntoo" that could make for quite a different mishearing.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Lynn, he was from Berkshire.

I imagine Johnto was pronounced Jon-toe, thats why I think it may have been Johnjoe.

[lynn cates]

Johnto

Hello Debs. Thanks. "Johnston" sounds more Scots than Irish or Welsh.

Do we know how "Johnto" was pronounced? If there was a mishearing, the correct pronunciation would be helpful to know.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

but conflating "too" down to "to" is still very common.

.

Jon, it might be a very good possibility to you, but it's certainly not a given, is it?

I was thinking that maybe Barnett did mishear and that the name could be something like the Irish 'Johnjoe' ?

Lynn...nothing.

[Wickerman]

Was it yourself, timsta, who raised that a couple of years ago?

Yes, the suggestion is that "Yan-to" is "Ifan" (Ivan) which means the same as "John", but this does not mean "Johnto". Even in Welsh, "Johnto" does not exist. This is not claiming that Yanto is Johnto, only John.

Unless, Barnett misheard Kelly when she said Henry was nicknamed "Yanto", due to her accent?, he thought she said "Johnto"?, he would never have heard a name like Yanto.

That would explain it, but conflating "too" down to "to" is still very common.

It might be worth investigating if any other Henry's in Wales have been nicknamed "Yanto", and why, what is the connection to the name Henry?

Regards, Jon S.

[timsta]

Be sure to let me know when anyone locates a "Johnto"; Welsh, Irish, Scot, or English, and with established etymology, if you please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ianto

Regards
Timsta

[lynn cates]

OK

Hello Debs. Well, you talked me back into it.

Johnston? What am I missing here?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

...allegedly
Don't let this deter anyone researching from trying that name, or variations.

Scott, It's Johnston.

Be sure to let me know when anyone locates a "Johnto"; Welsh, Irish, Scot, or English, and with established etymology, if you please.