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2ND battalion Scot's guards

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  • #16
    Johnto, too.

    Hello Debs. That was my take. Were it "Johntoo" that could make for quite a different mishearing.



    • #17
      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
      Jon, it might be a very good possibility to you, but it's certainly not a given, is it?
      Quite true, its just that many people write "to" for "too" today, so it is quite common.
      Assume we accept "Yan-to" (Ivan), and because this does not appear to be Irish, then we might also have to accept the Kelly's did live in Wales for a time. I know some have doubted it.

      I'd be interested if there is a tradition in Wales which connects "Ivan" with a "Henry"?
      But, at the end of the day, be it either a misspelling "to" for "too", or mishearing, "Johnto" for "Yanto", it seem's pointless to look for either in military records, or a Welsh census.

      I was thinking that maybe Barnett did mishear and that the name could be something like the Irish 'Johnjoe' ?
      Ah, like my grandfather, PC John Joseph Smyth, Dublin Metropolitan Police.
      I don't recall him ever being called Johnjoe, but no doubt some were.

      Regards, Jon S.
      Regards, Jon S.


      • #18
        Originally posted by Wickerman
        Quite true, its just that many people write "to" for "too" today, so it is quite common.
        It is, no denying that, a good friend of mine does the very same thing. So the mistake would be from someone other than Barnett in that case?
        Originally posted by Wickerman
        Assume we accept "Yan-to" (Ivan), and because this does not appear to be Irish, then we might also have to accept the Kelly's did live in Wales for a time. I know some have doubted it.
        It would have to mean that his Welsh friends gave him that name? Or it would mean that MJK's story could not have been that accurate surely? She moved to Wales when young after being born in Ireland. Ianto would need to be much younger than MJK for his parents to have chosen a traditional Welsh name for him after their move to Wales?

        Originally posted by Wickerman
        But, at the end of the day, be it either a misspelling "to" for "too", or mishearing, "Johnto" for "Yanto", it seem's pointless to look for either in military records, or a Welsh census.
        But if it was something like Johnjoe,then it's worth looking as this name does appear as a name in itself in the Irish census, that's all I'm saying:

        Click image for larger version

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        ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸, Debs ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,

        I am not DJA. He's called Dave.


        • #19
          single name

          Hello Debs. The entries look like single names. Unusual, but worth a go.




          • #20
            About a year ago, I had a similar idea... even to the extent of pondering the relationship between brother and sister, his disapproval of his sister's life, and his access to 'bayonets' (think Martha Tabram)... food for thought.
            Nothing came of the initial burst of enthusiasm as real life took over, but I think I have some notes jotted down somewhere which I will endeavour to post.


            • #21

              Hello Dr. H. Thanks for the willingness to share your notes.

              Regarding Martha and a "bayonet," you might wish to pop round to the "Tabram blood spatter" thread and get in on the fun.



              • #22
                Greetings all

                So, my notes are not copious
                I did make a list of the relevant names and their cognates in various (relevant) languages... can't remember why I made a list of those of Henry off the top of my head - some line of thought or other! Here:
                EDIT! Henry = her brother's name - one of those days!

                Irish = Seamus, Shamus
                English = Jacob, Jacobus, Jakob, Jake, Jack, Jackie, James, Jamie, Jim, Jimmy, Jay
                Welsh = Iago, Jago
                Scots = Hamish
                Latin = Iacobus, Iacomus

                Irish = Annraoi, Anraí, Einrí
                Welsh = Parry, Harri
                Scots = Eanraig
                English = Heriot, Herriot, Harris, Harrison, Henderson, Aymerick, Emery, Hal, Hank
                Latin = Henricus, Aenrichus

                English = John, Ewan, Shawn, Johnny, Jack, Ian, Evan
                Irish = Seán, Shaun, Shane/Seaghan, Eoin/Eoghan
                Scots = Iain, Ian
                Welsh = Ioannes, Ianto, Ioan
                Latin = Ioan, Siôn, Ewan, Evan, Ifan

                English = Mary, Mae, Maleah, Mamie, Maree, Mariah, Mariam, Maryam, Marian, Marie, Mariel, Marigold, Marilena, Marilene, Marilou, Marilyn, Marinda, Marion, Marisole, Marissa, Marla, Marleen, Marlena, Marlene, Marlyn, Marnie, Maryann, Maryanne, Marybeth, Marylou, Marylu, Marylyn, Maryvonne, Maura, Maureen, Maurene, Maurine, May, Mayme, Merilyn, Merrilyn, Maria, Miriam, Mo, Moira, Mollie, Molly, Mora, Moreen, Myriam, Marie

                Irish = Maurene, Maureen, Maura, Maira, Maurine, Minnie, Moira, Moreen, Máire, Mairenn, Máirín, Muire, Moyra, Moya, Mare, Mallaidh

                Scots = Maura, Màiri, Mhairi, Mhairie, Mhari, Minnie, Moire, Moyra, Morag

                Welsh = Mair, Mairwen

                Manx = Marion, Mariod, Mariot, Moirrey, Moreen

                Latin = Maria

                My notes tell me that I think Mary Kelly was of Welsh birth (she allegedly spoke welsh, her name, though Irish in origin, was common in Wales, especially around the coal-mining areas, her father was allegedly a miner in Wales, her alleged husband was named Davies (Welsh name) and was killed in a mining disaster - the mining connection again). I still think that this is a very real possibility, and certainly one worth exploring. Also according to my notes, she was alleged to have had an argument with her brother over her lifestyle in the period leading up to her murder.

                I remember spending a bit of time searching for various clues and possible sitings on Ancestry in the Welsh census records, searching for a Mary and a John (or cognates thereof) as siblings (with or without the surname Kelly) in any of the mining areas, and I also looked for mining disasters small and large in the time period (there are a scary amount!) as a clue, and I seem to remember finding some possibles, but nothing definite... just hints. However, I have lost the paper that was in the file - 2 house moves since this time last year. It's around here somewhere, but I'll be buggered if I can find it.

                Anyway, when I do, I'll post the possibles.

                This is my two-pennorth, hope it helps, because I actually think that this way lies MJK, buried under a mound of supposition, myth, lies and half-truths. If we ignore all the strands of "she lived in France, etc" for a moment, and brush away all extraneous unlikely epehemera, we have a coherent picture of a woman born in Ireland (possibly) but certainly grew up in Wales, married, strong connections with mining, and was widowed, moved to London, became an 'unfortunate' but dreamt of so much more, and ended up horrifically murdered. Sad really.

                MJK was Welsh (he yells, and then ducks for cover)
                Last edited by DrHopper; 02-28-2012, 06:15 PM.


                • #23

                  Hello Dr. H. Thanks for posting these.

                  I wonder if "Kelley" is worth the bother?



                  • #24
                    Certainly worth looking at, if for no other reason than to tick the box to say "no, not that one".
                    So Kelley, Kelly, Kellie, Kellee, and any other variations.

                    I am inclined to think, though, that Kelly may be a pseudonym.


                    • #25

                      Hello Dr. H. Entirely agree.



                      • #26
                        It is certainly possible that Mary was born in Wales, although if she was, I would imagine that her last name must have been a pseudonym, since I suspect that researchers such as Chris Scott would have located her in the Welsh census or birth records by now.

                        But I find myself rereading Barnett's statement at the inquest and puzzling over the business of the name "Kelly": Barnett was fuzzy about a lot of things in the story that Mary told him, but one thing he was absolutely emphatic about was her birth name. So I ask the question: how it could be possible for Kelly to have been Mary's actual surname and yet for her to have remained invisible in the existing records?

                        Off the top of my head, a few things seem to need to be true for Kelly to have been her maiden name:

                        She most likely would have been born in Ireland, since there are no national census records surviving for the 1860's in Ireland (thanks to the infinite wisdom of the British government), and thus her family and birth date would only be traceable in local Irish records.

                        Her family would have arrived in Wales after the 1871 census, since this would explain her absence from those records.

                        Her "marriage" to a local Welsh miner (Davies or no) would not have been a legal union at all, but rather an illicit elopement, which was certainly common to couples of her social class at the time. Hence there is no marriage certificate.

                        She was no longer living with her family at the time of the 1881 census, and was rather living with this man, or, if he were already dead (or had deserted her), she was using an assumed name at this time. Therefore she is impossible to locate in the 1881 census records.

                        But this still leaves the problem of the brother, who would presumably also have had the surmane Kelly. The story of the brother has enough credibility--Barnett knowing a couple details about the whereabouts of the 2nd Scots Guards at the time--for us to take seriously. So what are we missing?

                        One thought that has occurred to me is that Mary's birth father may have died, and her mother remarried. If so, Mary--who seems to have loved her mother and avoided her father--may have kept her birth father's name, while the rest of the family may have assumed the stepfather's last name. I don't know the legalities during the Victorian era (I would like to hear from others on this), but it would explain a few things about the problem finding the right Kelly family in the records. So perhaps a key would be to look for the death certificates of men named John Kelly in the 1870's in these Welsh communities. If a widow's name is found, that woman and family might be traced to a subsequent second marriage. Clearly, this second marriage had either been unhappy--Mary's mother having returned to Ireland by 1888--or the entire family had moved back there for some other reason. A longshot, but that seems to be all that is left.


                        • #27

                          Hello Rya. Those are very interesting possibilities.

                          I believe it was stated at inquest that ALL her siblings were in London. Wonder why none attended her funeral?



                          • #28
                            Younger brother - Lawrence??
                            son -- Denis??

                            Last name -- actually Kelly??


                            • #29
                              There's a very good site listing the names of many Welsh mining casualties at:

                              Afraid I couldn't spot any Kellies in the years 1870 to 1885 though...


                              • #30
                                Lots and lots of Davies though, look you!