Who left whom?

[lynn cates]

cordial

Hello Harry.

"Barnett was at her room the evening before death,so it seems there was still some communication between them of a friendly nature."

Completely agree. Whoever initiated the breakup, things remained cordial as evidenced by his supposedly giving her money--when he had it.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Maria and Harry.
Yes, she could make a fresh start elsewhere. A fresh start next door, that means.

[mariab]

Maria,
How long though would the non payment of rent be tolerated.

I agree about the pending rent. It has been speculated that McCarthy might have shown understanding due to some kind of involvement with MJK, though there is no evidence for such.

Kelly was still young and robust enough to make a fresh start elsewhere, and breaking with Joe was maybe the first step.

Completely agree, especially pertaining to a jobless Barnett, and that's precisely what I meant with my (jestful) reference to a poor man's Manon Lescaut.

[harry]

Lynn,
Perhaps innocent is a wrong choice of word.Barnett was at her room the evening before death,so it seems there was still some communication between them of a friendly nature.
Maria,
How long though would the non payment of rent be tolerated.Kelly was still young and robust enough to make a fresh start elsewhere, and breaking with Joe was maybe the first step.

[mariab]

No evidence exists for MJK having been evicted yet before she got murdered.

[lynn cates]

innocent

Hello Harry. Thanks for that. But I wonder whether, at this stage, all explanations are not innocent? It seems not incriminating of anyone even if she left him, not vice versa.

I also wonder whether, if she were evicted, she and Joe could not remain together.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

An innocent e xplanation might be that Kelly,because of arrears of rent,assumed that she would be asked to leave the room,and in consequence would have to leave Joe.Perhaps she intended to leave the area.

[lynn cates]

Ela

Hello Jon. Thanks. "East London Advertiser" eh? And word for word.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Velma. The date was November 17, 1888. Of course, it was SUPPOSED to be from inquest.

It would be interesting if it really were what MJK had confided in Julia.

Cheers.
LC

There is a copy in the Press Reports:

"Julia Vanternie, a German said that she lived in Miller-court, and knew the deceased, who was an unfortunate. The man "Joe," who was living with her, objected to her going on the streets. The deceased had lived with another man, whom she was very fond of. She had said to witness, "Joe has been a good fellow to me. I shall have to leave him." On the night of the murder witness felt strange, thinking that she heard noises. The deceased was singing some Irish songs during the night."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela881117.html

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

An excellent faker, then. 28 years in the asylum.

[mariab]

just don't make overtures to your boss.

Too late for that. My boss and I are like Siamese twins, only closer. And sicker. :-)

Mental diseases often combine, don't they ? Or is it our concepts that overlap?

In my opinion, David, this happens only when the defendant's faking it.

[DVV]

David, you mean that MJK's Fleming might have been another one than the one with the medical records?

Certainly not, they are one and the same. In 1888, Fleming moved to Whitechapel, he lived in the anonymous VH and was known to ill-use MJK. He may have resumed his trade and made a living by other means. When in Stone he seemed to live in his own world and was noted for being "very abusive" at times.
I can't see any indication that he was not a sociopath here, but again, I can't deduce the Ripper's problem looking at the crime scenes.
Mental diseases often combine, don't they ? Or is it our concepts that overlap ?

[curious]

Later on I'm going to the Lyric to see Aida with my boss, to whom I've commissioned Lynn's joke about his being able to Tell of my making Ouvertures to Rossini and to strange men. The latter part might fit, but probly the other way around.

just don't make overtures to your boss.

[curious]

There have been suspicions expressed that McCarthy might have been involved in some fashion (business?) with MJK and some people find his report of finding her suspicious, as if he had known of her death earlier. There's an extensive article on McCarthy in Ripper Notes issue #20-something, but I haven't read it in a while and don't have it here with me in Chicago.

I am aware of some of those, and don't rule out either of the ones that have come to my mind.

One was that he was forcing her into prostitution for the rent money, perhaps acting as her (and others) pimp.

Another, that he had ties to Ireland and that perhaps his family and her family were somehow connected.

there may be others that don't come to mind immediately.

It appears that McCarthy thought MJ and Joe's last name was Kelly, did not appear to know that Joe was a Barnett.

Got a story to write . . .

[mariab]

Au contraire, Maria, it is perfectly correct English. For instance, an English speaker might say 'I shall have to go to the shop to buy toilet paper' if such action is necessary. How's about 'If you shall continue to call my wife a prostitute I shall punch you on the nose'.
I shall take Manhatten (and Statten Island too).

Wow, thanks. I'm still acquainting myself with British English. I had expected “I shall need to leave him (at some point)“ to be the correct form.
I'm more familiar with “He don't speak no English“ (spoken with a Staten Island accent) or “Dude, awesome, I dunno how you do it bro. Gnar-ly.“ (spoken with sunny/lazy South Cali 'ttude).

Hello Maria,
I can't see why Fleming wouldn't be a sociopath. We don't know enough but the little we have certainly doesn't speak against the possibility.
I bet it's hot and sunny in Chicago.

David, you mean that MJK's Fleming might have been another one than the one with the medical records?
Like everywhere else in the world, Chicago spots atypical spring and sunny weather (with some snow left on the ground for good measure). Later on I'm going to the Lyric to see Aida with my boss, to whom I've commissioned Lynn's joke about his being able to Tell of my making Ouvertures to Rossini and to strange men. The latter part might fit, but probly the other way around.