Duration of the inquest into the death of Mary Jane Kelly (?)

[DVV]

Steak tartare et worcestshire sauce.

[Archaic]

FrankO, Post #1:

10.
Then the inquest is adjourned for a luncheon. According to the Times of 13 November this took "a few minutes".

I'm not surprised the luncheon break was so brief. I doubt anybody could eat after what they'd just seen.

Best regards,
Archaic

[FrankO]

Thanks Ben! As there's been much speculation about the duration and closing time of the inquest lately, I thought I'd give it a shot - just to get a clearer picture.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Quite correct Frank, authors are typically being over generous when they identify Bond's report as 'The Official Inquest Report', it was actually nothing of the sort.

Thanks for your response too, Jon. However, I wasn't referring to the post-mortem report, but to the official inquest papers, which can be found on pages 409 - 417 of The Ultimate JtR Sourcebook. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

You're obviously right in saying that Bond's report, although official, wasn't an inquest report.

Best,
Frank

[Ben]

A fascinating study of the likely duration of the inquest, Frank, and an excellent idea for a thread! Suffice to say I agree entirely with your suggestions.

All the best,
Ben

[FrankO]

I was coincidentally calculating when Lewis would have testified and worked back from a 5 pm end time - and came up with 3.30 pm ish.
I think that is a fair ball park time.

Hi Lechmere,

Thanks for your response. Even though I have no problem with 5 pm, I would be interested to know what times you’d end up with for Lewis and the closure of the inquest if you’d start from the beginning. Right now it seems as though you just say: oh, 5 pm seems like a good time to me, so now lets work our way back to when Lewis would have ended her deposition. But would you end up with 3.30 and 5 pm as well if you started calculating from the other side, the beginning?

Even though the Star of 12 November had it “close upon twelve o‘clock before any evidence was taken”, just to be on the safe side, I’d put the time that Barnett started his deposition closer to half past twelve - after he was sworn in, after the coroner addressed the press about the matter of jurisdiction.

All the best,
Frank

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the tip, Mike. However, if that's the same inquest report as in The Ultimate JtR Sourcebook by Stewart & Skinner, which I suspect they are, then they don't contain any times as to the opening and closure of the inquest. Bummer.

Cheers,
Frank

Quite correct Frank, authors are typically being over generous when they identify Bond's report as 'The Official Inquest Report', it was actually nothing of the sort.

The official Post-mortem report was the jurisdiction of Dr. Phillips. Etiqette required that only by the invite of Dr. Phillips were other doctors allowed to be present.
Needless to say, the official post-mortem by Dr. Phillips has not survived.
If you need a contemporary example of how exhaustive Dr. Phillips was in his reports I should direct you to the post-mortem of Alice McKenzie (Ultimate JtR, pp. 455-460).

Bond's report is only a summary of the scene at Miller's Court where the preliminary examination was conducted. The official post-mortem was conducted at the local mortuary headed by Dr. Phillips.

[Lechmere]

The jury were not out for long and the final part of the inquest seems rushed - which suggest to me that it ended near enough at 5 pm. The coroner clearly didn't want to come back another day.

There would be a gap between each witness. There would have been legal musings that are not recorded. There would have been pauses while questions were framed in the coroners mind. This case was interrupted several times by points of order.
I was coincidentally calculating when Lewis would have testified and worked back from a 5 pm end time - and came up with 3.30 pm ish.
I think that is a fair ball park time.

[lynn cates]

tempus fugit

Hello Frank and Michael. Lovely idea for a thread.

My suggestion is to compare MJK's inquest to some of the other victims--in particular, Polly and Annie's. Notice the HUGE difference?

I recall that, as a younger professor, I had stopped a lecture just a few minutes short? Why? It occurred to me that there was a difficult question lurking which I may not be able to answer fully if asked. Now extrapolate.

Cheers.
LC

[FrankO]

It's supposed to have the official inquest report in it. I have a feeling that 'official' doesn't mean we will have any times given for the closure of the inquest. Still, maybe someone has a copy and can post what the text says.

Thanks for the tip, Mike. However, if that's the same inquest report as in The Ultimate JtR Sourcebook by Stewart & Skinner, which I suspect they are, then they don't contain any times as to the opening and closure of the inquest. Bummer.

Cheers,
Frank

[The Good Michael]

Frank,

I concur that MacDonald wanted it to not go too long, probably to keep Baxter away. There was a book written called "the inquest of the last Ripper Victim Mary Kelly" (or something like that). It's supposed to have the official inquest report in it. I have a feeling that 'official' doesn't mean we will have any times given for the closure of the inquest. Still, maybe someone has a copy and can post what the text says.

Cheers,

Mike

[FrankO]

Hi Mike,

Obviously, I've never been to a Victorian inquest either, or any other for that matter, so I invite anyone with more knowledge on the subject to fill in some of the blanks we have on the matter of smoke breaks & protocol.

What I do know, however, is that coroner Macdonald didn't want to waste anyones time. And I don't know at what time the evening papers came out, but the inquest ended in time for them to carry the coverage of the inquest.

Cheers,
Frank

[The Good Michael]

Frank,

I estimated a quarter of an hour and played a bit with each witness giving them anywhere from 10-25 minutes and I came out to just about 5 o'clock. Still, I've never been to a Victorian inquest and just don't have a clue about how long there might be between witnesses and having smoke breaks and what kind of protocol was followed. It seems between 4:30 and 5:00 is usable, but who really knows.

Mike

[FrankO]

You're welcome, Mike. You, or anybody else, might want to read the following newspapers in order to get a decent timeline/ picture.

Of 12 November: Echo, Evening News, Pall Mall Gazette & Star
Of 13 November: Daily News, Daily Telegraph, Irish Times & Times.
Of 17 November: Illustrated Police News

Meanwhile, I've found another referance to the break after Phillips' testimony. It's in the Irish Times of 13 November and reads:
"The Coroner said he proposed to continue taking evidence for another hour.
The jury wished to adjourn for some time.
The Coroner replied that he would resume in a quarter of an hour."

And if you'll find anything that might influence my ideas, I'll gladly read it.

Cheers,
Frank

[The Good Michael]

Frank,

Thanks for putting this together. It's difficult to create a decent timeline. You may be right about the deposition times. Reading the Star's report which is detailed at the front end, but then tapers off into rambling, we can cut off some time by beginning at about 12 when Barnet was sworn in.

I'll cut and paste something for me. If I see anything that might affect your ideas, I'll post it.

Cheers,'

Mike