The Broken Window

[richardnunweek]

Hi Bob.
I like to search every avenue as you proberly have guessed, and I was attempting to find an alternative explanation to Farsons quote.
It is entirely possible that some string device was used via the window, but how would that have worked?
If this means of entrance was to save the visitor knocking, it would make no sense, as once that person had gone round to the window, and pulled back the pilot coat [ at night] then they could see if the room was ocupied, and in daylight they simply could have looked through the window, as that garment would not have been drawn across during the day[ one would pursume]
both scenerios would have resulted, in the door being opened for them, locked or not, if Kelly was at home.
Another explanation, is that string was tied round the outer doorknob, for the benefit of her regular female visitors who often frequented her room, and it was a way of informing them when they reached the door if Barnett was around, [who we know objected fiercely to her lady friends] so they need not knock, or go round to the window if no string was there, and he would be none the wiser.
Far fetched mayby , but ?
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

I"m sorry Mr Hinton. Clearly I missed your post only two above mine. Many apologies.

As for MJK leaving a string outside the door so there was no need to knock. I can't believe this at all. We've got Prater upstairs barricading herself in while downstairs, the more vulnerable MJK lets anyone in who wants to come. I don't think that's likely at all. Even without a serial killer roaming the area, even given that she made her living as a prostitute, I doubt MJK was as cavalier about her guests as that.

However I am now not going to start my list of suspects with the the unknown and opportunistic creeper. If for no other reason than it was clearly possible to (a) draw the curtain aside and see MJK asleep in bed--as Bowyer confirms because that is how he discovered the body. And (b) quietly reach in and open the lock. Because one thing strikes me that I've never thought of before which I'm not going to go into here. I think I'll go and start a thread in 'general victims'.

[Bob Hinton]

Broken Glass

Hello Bob.
As far as I am aware, Kellys door had just a knob outside and a key hole, no letter box, so if the string ever existed ,it had to have been either attached to the bolt of the door, and placed [over a nail mayby?] near the broken window.or as my previous post suggested, on the exterior of the door.
Regards Richard.

You're missing the point Richard, I'm not suggesting MJK had a letterbox I'm suggesting that this story emanated from the old habit some people had of leaving a key on a bit of string behind the letterbox.

As for leaving signs on doors so her friends would know just to walk in I'm sorry but that is a trip to fantasy land.

[richardnunweek]

Bob,
I was not in fantasy mode, simply using the quotation as Farson described, it surely is possible that when Mary was in her room , she left a piece of string around the outer door knob, so that any of her friends seeing this would know[ by prior arrangement] that they had no need to knock...come straight in.
No string ... she was not at home.
It is not uncommon for people to leave signs in windows etc, to know if its safe to call... not as if I would know anything about that ..
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Bob.
As far as I am aware, Kellys door had just a knob outside and a key hole, no letter box, so if the string ever existed ,it had to have been either attached to the bolt of the door, and placed [over a nail mayby?] near the broken window.or as my previous post suggested, on the exterior of the door.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

The first thing to understand is that Barnett claimed that the door was opened by reaching through the window.You either have to believe that is what was done,or call Barnett a liar..

As usual you are jumping to all sorts of conclusions not backed up by facts. The first thing to understand, to use your phrase, is that we have no record of Barnett saying anything of the sort. What we have is Abberline saying that was what Barnett said, which is an entirely different thing altogether. That is heresay and is not allowed in court as it can give rise to errors.

Now I'm not saying Abberline is a liar, so please stay in your pram, what I am saying is that it is not as clear cut as you try to make it appear. So I don't have only the option of believeing Barnett or calling him a liar as he is not on record as saying anything about the window access.

I personally believe that Barnett did say he gained access by reaching through the window, and I know that is possible by the results of my own experiment. However it is not easy and requires a bit of ledge balancing.

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

Hello all,
Quote .'Mary had a string on the door, so anyone calling had no need to knock'.
We are all assuming that this infered that the string was tied to the bolt inside, and hung close to the window, but there is another explanation.
What if it simply meant, that if a visitor called and string was tied around the outer door knob, then one could come straight in, as someone was at home, however no string would mean that no one was at home, and the door would be locked, and after the key was lost,and the window was broken, entry could only be allowed by reaching through that window and slipping the bolt, not with the aid of string.
Regards Richard.

Richard why are you in the land of fantasy again? And I suppose if she hung her old school tie on the doorhandle it meant she was with a man and if it was her old school scarf it was a woman and if it was her diamond tiara it was that she was out!

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

The string story might be have arisen out of an old habit of attaching a string to a letter-slot in a front door in case someone forgets a key. When I was a kid in the fifties a lot of people did that, but then criminals caught on and so people stopped. It's possible people thought MJK might have done that, and so the story went into the story-pot with all the others.
.

Does anyone read the posts here? This is an exact duplicate of what I posted only two posts previously!

[richardnunweek]

Hello all,
Quote .'Mary had a string on the door, so anyone calling had no need to knock'.
We are all assuming that this infered that the string was tied to the bolt inside, and hung close to the window, but there is another explanation.
What if it simply meant, that if a visitor called and string was tied around the outer door knob, then one could come straight in, as someone was at home, however no string would mean that no one was at home, and the door would be locked, and after the key was lost,and the window was broken, entry could only be allowed by reaching through that window and slipping the bolt, not with the aid of string.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

The String issue is only one of many explanations,but it is here being used as a red herring,in the sense that no string would imply no window access.

Hi Harry

I don't think that this is the case - at least not in my view. There is no reason to disbelieve Barnett - it's a reasonable explnation and does not appear to have been doubted at the time. I think it is clear that there was window access, string or not. I don't personally think there was a string. This is because:

1) There is no evidence for there having been a string - by which I mean that it was never mentioned in contemporary terms. The anecdotal story about the string is, as I understand it, after the fact.

2) A string would be impractical, for reasons given above.

We don't know who accessed the door through the window other than Barnett and Kelly. The killer might have obtained entry that way, but I don't think its possible to know. There are other possibilities which appear as likely.

Best regards

Sally

[harry]

The first thing to understand is that Barnett claimed that the door was opened by reaching through the window.You either have to believe that is what was done,or call Barnett a liar.If it is the latter,then some explanation needs to be given as to why Barnett would lie.I believe Barnett.
The String issue is only one of many explanations,but it is here being used as a red herring,in the sense that no string would imply no window access.
There were many types of locks,latches and catches in 1888.We do not know which one was used to secure the door.Release mechanism of the simple kind would take but seconds to operate,even allowing for care in respect of the broken glass.TEN seconds at the most.
The spring lock is a statement given in a paper.It is not quoted from official sources.The paper could have been guessing,they do not state their source.
Now don't take my word for the kind of object that was used to secure that particular door,and do not take anyone elses word.Scour the internet,go see a locksmith,but dont just guess,or accept that it could only have been a spring lock.

[Chava]

The string story might be have arisen out of an old habit of attaching a string to a letter-slot in a front door in case someone forgets a key. When I was a kid in the fifties a lot of people did that, but then criminals caught on and so people stopped. It's possible people thought MJK might have done that, and so the story went into the story-pot with all the others.

As Sally has pointed out, a string accessed through the broken pane would be even less practical than reaching an arm through. In fact it would have all of the disadvantages of the reached arm and no advantages at all. Very yeasy to cut a string on a piece of jagged glass, and then where are you with your handy method of gaining ingress! The key and the the cut string are now on the floor and completely out of reach.

[Sally]

Of course!

Hi Bob

Thank you for posting that very succinct argument. I agree with the points you make and like the idea that the story about the string is confused with the practice of tying the string to the key - makes much more sense to me.

Best regards

Sally

[Bob Hinton]

Broken Glass

Hi All

I read the posts about the string with interest. It sounds good, doesn't it - yes of course! It seems much easier to have a piece of string attached to the lock: that way nobody has to put their arm through the window and risk cutting themselves on the broken glass.

But leaving aside the obvious point that it was not mentioned at the time - you would want to know why - I can't see it working. It would take some force to pull a piece of string to open the lock, even if the lock was of a type that made that possible.

If you were in that posiiton, trying to pull the lock open with a piece of string through the broken window; I bet it would be fiddly, to say the least. If the murderer had gained entrance that way, for the sake of argument, he (or she) would have been messing about for quite a while, I should think, running the risk of being caught.

I don't find that very plausible really. The other thing is, if you were standing there, fiddling about with the string, there's a good chance you'd end up catching it on the broken glass, which would probably sever it anyway.

It looks good on paper, but when you deconstruct it, it's a bit impractical I think.

Personally I think Sally has made some very viable points there.

I don't think there was any string device at all and I'll give my reasons.

First off to release the bolt from the door the bolt has to move from the door jamb to the hinge edge of the door, in other words if you are standing in front of the door the bolt has to move from your left to your right.

A piece of string going through the broken window to the bolt would in fact move it in the opposite direction, from right to left. Unless of course the piece of string was looped around something in the room and then attached to the bolt, something like a pulley.

But then we are moving into the realms of silliness, never mind Jack the Ripper you would probably strangle yourself everytime you went into the room.

I think the person who came up with this was confusing this incident with the old practice of leaving a key on a piece of string behind the letterbox, quite a common thing to do in days gone by. It was a simple method of letting people in who didn't have their own key.

But as to MJK doing something similar? No.

[curious4]

broken window

Sorry, I wasn´t clear - when I said "it" I did mean the window and wedged or propped open was what I meant. Forgive the ramblings of an old lady!

As for the string at the crime scene it could well have been overlooked, I think, but also thrown on the fire with the rest of the things. If there was blood on the window it follows that the killer was fiddling around there...

Point taken Bob Hinton - I do have a tendency to skip through, will try to improve! Name of your book? I am building up a collection and would be interested in adding it next time I go on a buying spree.