MJK Murder

[Jane Coram]

Hi Rubytro,

I don't try to guess anything about anything in the case anymore - I think I joined the old fart's brigade a few years ago, and can't cope with too much theorizing these days.

However, if you are interested in Hutch, there have been some suggestions in the past that Hutchinson and Joseph Fleming alias James Evans, could possibly be one and the same. There are some interesting similarities and coincedences between them, which are quite intriguing. There's still quite a lot of research going into both of them, so if there is anything to find, I'm sure someone will find it. I'm not sure if there is a thread on here about it - there did use to be, but it might have got lost in the crash a while ago. Worth a read though.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but all of the murders in the series seem to have been carried out very efficiently and cleanly -- so whoever the killer was he seemed to know what he was doing from start to finish. The police at the time homed in on all the slaughterers and butchers in the area with a vengeance, because the skills JtR exhibited would definitely put them in the frame. Of course people with any kind of military training would be likelies as well, especially after Martha Tabram's murder.

Although it's a bit of a chore, it's well worth going through all of the press reports of Mary's murder, day by day, because you'd be amazed at some of the little gems tucked away there, that often get missed.

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[Rubyretro]

Jane -I believe that Hutch was described as of 'military appearance' -maybe he HAD been in the army and new how to kill ?

(I no longer believe Toppy was Hutch)

He was described as a groom, but horses were a major army ressource at the time, so it follows that the army must have had lots of grooms...whether those were regular soldiers who specialised in horses or civilians I've no idea.

An anonymous Hutch is almost impossible to trace -but it might be an interesting tack (no pun intended !) to see whether any George Hutchinsons were discharged from the army, or sacked, for any dubious behaviour in the preceding years ? (I imagine that the army must keep very good records).

A needle in a haystack of course -but it might be a clue that Hutch is not described as coming from the regions.

[Chava]

I'm aware of the poor girl that was strangled outside Fougeres. The choke-hold is a really good point, and it's certainly possible that the killer used that hold. However it does look as if Chapman was strangled in a more conventional manner.

My point about the noise is this: the Ripper killed in the open air on urban streets. It doesn't sound like his victims made amy noise at all, and we know that no one in Buck's Row heard a sound. But noise in the open air is not the same as noise in a closed room with a wooden floor. I think Our Boy is very careful about noise as witnessed by the lack of commotion during the other murders. I'm old enough to remember ricketty iron or wooden beds. They creaked, they grated, they clunked. A struggle on a bed like that would kick up a hell of a row.

But noise or not, choke-holds or not, the fact remains he killed her on the bed at the far side of the room when it had to have been easier to kill her in the middle of the room where there was more space and less opportunity for noise. I am sticking to my guns, he killed her there because it was convenient for him to do so. He waited until she was in bed. The murder site of MJK, to me, tells us a (tiny) bit more about the killer than the other murder sites. I do think he was shorter than she was. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise it's safer to kill her in the room where he's got way more control over the situation.

PS, If he was shorter than her, I wonder why he chose her as a victim. I don't think it's likely that he would have gone after a woman he didn't think he could control completely. So (sticking to yet more of my guns) I think he knew her and had other personal reasons for killing her over and above his inclination to kill and mutilate women.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Ruby,

No problem. I love Star Trek. Leonard Nimoy invented that move apparently. Cool. That's really more pressure points than a strangle hold or blood choke though. Basically a stranglehold is just an arm around someone's throat. Hardly high-tech. Lol.

The idea of a choke or stranglehold isn't a new one by any stretch. It's been around for ages, and accepted as at least a good possibility by quite a few serious researchers. The other main suggestion seems to have been that he put his hand over their nose and mouth and suffocated them that way. Polly's facial injuries would seem to support that to a large extent.

I'm sure that Don Souden won't mind me quoting a few lines from an excellent article he wrote -- 'Suede and the Ripper', Ripperologist 104, July 2009.

. . . the sleeper-hold would really seem the obvious first step in the Ripper’s murder game. Get close enough to his victim that he can immediately cover her mouth to stifle a scream, apply pressure to the right area to render her unconscious, lower her to the ground and then as quickly cut her throat, almost to the bone . . .

This suggestion was also made by Ivor Edwards, in his book Jack the Ripper’s Black Magic Rituals

Jack the Ripper did kill cleanly, efficiently, silently and without the victims being able to put up any resistance. Whether he was a soldier or had military experience is really debatable, but he certainly knew how to kill. A stranglehold of some sort would account for the lack of noise when he attacked Mary.

Here's the discussion on casebook.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2957

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Rubyretro]

G.I.Jane ! (I'm really sorry -I'm going to go away now...)

[GregBaron]

Chokeholds.........

Interesting point Jane, does this imply that our perp had some sort
of military or police experience? Or would strangleholds be common
knowledge among 19th century working class blokes......? Perhaps
this is how they got their wives off their backs at night.......Sorry
couldn't resist...........


Greg

[Rubyretro]

hey, Jane !

Have you been watching those 'Mr Spock' videos in Pub Talk ???

(I'm sorry -I do agree with you)

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

Just to add a little more to the question of strangulation and noise:

Many researchers these days favour the idea that some kind of blood choke, or choke hold was used on the victims, to cause insensibility. It usually leaves no marks, or cause permanent damage.

The chokehold or stranglehold can be effected silently and cause unconsciousness within seconds without any resistance on the part of the victim. It's used by police forces to subdue criminals and is completely paralyzing and the would easily have given enough time to get the victim on the ground and cut their throat without them making a sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Rubyretro]

Another thought , Chava...

In 1996 the British school girl, Caroline Dickinson, was raped and murdered on a school trip to Brittany;

Her murderer thought himself able to creep into a youth hostel full of people, through an open door, in the middle of the night -risking being caught at any moment.

He was so driven, that he felt able to strangle and rape Caroline, although she was sleeping in a room filled with other girls -any one who could have woken up at any moment.

Although Caroline put up a struggle, infact only one girl woke up.

Although that girl heard Caroline's feet 'drumming on the floor' -she told herself that Caroline must be having a nightmare -and went back to sleep.

This is the sort of situation that we're dealing with, in my opinion.

[GregBaron]

Bed........

Chava,

The other women were strangled without a sound being heard so I
don't think any noise is necessary. Besides, as pointed out earlier,
a bit of racket isn't going to cause anyone to come knocking. It's a
prostitutes room for gosh sakes(sic). I agree she was most likely
killed on the bed but I don't see that that allows for any assumptions.
He may have been in there awhile and waited for the right moment as
the indoor scene does present different possibilities. He may have
thrown her on the bed and grabbed her by the throat immediately. Don't
think we can say either way. As for her height and weight, I don't think
that makes a great deal of difference. A short stout man can be immensely
strong and handle a taller more delicate woman. I don't see Mike Tyson
struggling to subdue Nicole Kidman.......Ok, sorry for the inane analogy
but you get my point. I do believe one of the Doctors mentioned that JtR
was probably quite strong. I understand your hypothesis and it may be true
but I don't think we can infer her perpetrator knew her in any personal way
from the evidence...........


Greg

[Rubyretro]

Chava- I don't know if it's possible to have heard her creaky bed on a ricketty floor making violent noises, from another room -but since she was a prostitute, energetic movements of her bed might have been a regular occurrence.

If you could hear a rattling bed through brick walls, I think that you could have heard snoring through a broken window, given the distance from the
window to the bed.

I wrote a Post earlier (on the " you are Hutchinson.." thread) mooting that even if she'd screamed her head off, it is probable that no one would have reacted..

[Chava]

Here are my problems with the whole on the bed/off the bed strangling idea:

At least one and probably two women were strangled before being slashed. It's not clear whether the women were standing or prone when initially attacked, however if prone they were lying on nice secure non-creaky, unmoving ground. MJK could have been attacked while she was lying down on the floor of her room--also non-moving although probably creaky. Then, while insensible, she could have been dragged to the bed and despatched there. However MJK was a tall woman and not a supermodel either. She would have weighed quite a lot. So it would have been impossible to drag her over to the bed, place her on it and kill her without a fair amount of noise. And her attacker would have had to have been exceptionally strong in the upper body to do this.

So maybe she was strangled in the bed. Perhaps. But strangling isn't something that occurs without a struggle. Even if she was lying pinned beneath her attacker, she would still have struggled violently. On a rickety bed on a wooden floor. That noise would have been heard by Prater and everyone else within earshot. But they heard nothing at all. The best way to have rendered her unconscious would, in my opinion, have been to wait until she was asleep and then hold a pillow over her face and smothered her. She may well still have struggled, but there would be a better chance of not attracting attention that way. However if that was done, it doesn't show up on the post mortem and nothing suggests that a pillow or bolster was used in this way.

The pool of blood on the floor is persuasive evidence that she was lying over to the right on the bed and may well have been turned to face down after the slash in order to drain the blood. It's how she got there that's important to me. Because I don't believe her killer attacked her until she was well and truly asleep in her bed. And since I think it's highly unlikely that he broke into her room and crept up on her, that would mean that he was in the room with her for quite a while before he killed her, even though he must have had ample opportunities to do so before she got into bed. As I've said above, this argues to me either (1) someone who knew her and killed her for non-Ripper reasons even though she was treated in a Ripper-like manner after death or (2) someone who wanted to kill her because he was the Ripper and she was his chosen victim, but who waited until he felt he could attack her with some ability to totally control her. And that was after she was in bed and at the very least dozing. Which suggests to me a man who was perhaps shorter than she was. Which might explain why the other victims with the exception of Stride were all quite short.

By the way, this does not preclude a Ripper who kill MJK as he killed the others but had a more personal connexion with her.

[lynn cates]

strangling

Hello Greg. Thanks. It is certainly true that Polly and Annie had both been strangled to near unconsciousness by their assailant before mutilation occurred. It is somewhat questionable regarding the other 3.

The best.
LC

[Jane Coram]

Hi Gary and Chava,

Excellent post Gary, thanks for that. I won't answer on anything I think you are likely to want to discuss, but hopefully none of this post will duplicate yours!

The attached diagram shows that the tip of the knife was inserted just under Mary's right ear and how far around the front of the neck it stretched. It does make it fairly certain that Mary wasn't lying on her right side when she was killed because there would have been no room to get the tip of the blade in. Obviously, there would be no chance if she was face down. I think we're all agreed on that at least!

Bond's suggestion that the corner of the bloody and cut sheet might have been over Mary's face at the time of the attack would also suggest that she was lying on her back.

There is one other point, but I don't want to pre-empt Gary, so

Hugs

Janie

xxxxx
 

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[GregBaron]

MO.......

Nice word there Lynn, inchoate, I like it, and of course you are quite correct.
But it appears this inchoate method was used on most if not all the women so
as Garry said, why change the MO when it's been quite successful......


Greg