Still Confused on Kelly crime scene

[FrankO]

I'm sure you'd have done better, but I'm glad I could help, Janie!

Frank

[Jane Coram]

Hi Frank,

I'm glad you worked that out because it would have ended up as 17 feet 3 inches if I'd done it. Well done my friend.

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[FrankO]

The broken window pane is not that far from the handle of the door by the looks of it, if you look at the enhanced photo of MJK 3 that someone kindly put up recently. It was probably a bit of a stretch, but could obviously be done, or it wouldn't have been mentioned to the police.

In addition to Jane's fine post, Future MD, I think that if you take a look at the photo taken of Mary's room from the outside, you'll see that the broken pane was no more than about a foot from the corner (1 brick + window frame) and that the door was probably a bit further away from the corner (looks like ca. 1 and a half bricks and a door frame).

So, using Pythagoras' theorem: if arm and lock were at the same height, then the stretch through the window would be some (30*30 + 40*40 = C*C =) 50 cm (1.69 ft). Even if the hole in the pane was 40 cm away from the corner and the lock 45 cm - which seems much to me -, then the stretch would still only be about 60 cm, while the arms of a man or woman would be some 60 cm at least. Mine are some 65 cm and I'm 1.73 m or 5'8".

All the best,
Frank

[Jane Coram]

Hi Future MD,

You're right that it was the right hand window and the bottom pane on the right of that which was broken. Bowyer says in his police statement that he looked through the broken window.

The table that had the bolster and the entrails on it was directly in front of the window that Bowyer looked through, because he stated at the inquest that he could see the lumps of flesh directly in front of him on the table, then, he looked further back and saw the bed with Mary's remains on it behind the table.

It's impossible to say whether or not the table was in exactly that position when he looked in because the police and photographers may possibly have had to move it to get camera equipment in and get in and out themselves, as the table was at least at one point so close to the door that the door hit it when it was opened. It's just not possible to know for sure though what happened once the police entered unfortunately.

There were only two windows in the room in the pump yard wall.

The broken window pane is not that far from the handle of the door by the looks of it, if you look at the enhanced photo of MJK 3 that someone kindly put up recently. It was probably a bit of a stretch, but could obviously be done, or it wouldn't have been mentioned to the police.

The missing key is really not much of a mystery. I think there is a thread on it here somewhere, (I think it was headed, not unexpectedly, 'The Mystery of the Missing Key') but the lock on Mary's door was a spring lock and didn't need to be locked with a key. Once the catch was dropped it locked itself.

I've personally always been wary of Hutchinson's evidence, but that is just my personal view and others will certainly disagree. However, just assuming for a moment that Mr Astakhan man was Mary's killer, then even if Hutch had looked through the window and seen him in action, it's not really likely that he would be fully dressed, in a hat and coat to dismember poor Mary. He would certainly have taken his outer clothes off at least and probably stripped down further than that, so I think I personally rule out the possibility that Hutch's description was based on anything he saw in Mary's room.

If her killer did take his shirt off and was wearing black trousers, he could have walked out of that room without any noticeable signs of blood on him at all.

And as Greg says, it might well not have been that noisy. It does seem that no-one did hear much, either in Miller's Court, Hanbury Street, Buck's Row or Dutfield's Yard where there were people very close by. Even with Martha Tabram's murder in George Yard Buildings, no-one appears to have heard anything. It is possible that they just didn't want to get involved and lied, but we can't really ever know for sure.

Some interesting thoughts there Future -- I'd not even considered that Hutchinson might have actually looked through the window and seen Mary's killer at work!

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Well, I personally believe, that the photographer moved the body to some extent in the photo nr. 2 to get a good shot!

All the best
Jukka

[GregBaron]

Noise...lights........keys.......

Good questions Future Man.........just a few observations....I don't
necessarily think the room would have been a 3 ring circus where it
was obvious something was going on in there...perhaps a flickering fire..
Once Kelly was dead I don't expect a great deal of noise...slicing a
dead body wouldn't necessarily create much that would escape into the
streets or court.....also, many in the neighborhood would have known Mary was
a prostitute and hence would not have disturbed her....perhaps she had
a particularly weird John(punter) who requested strange things...?.
that was her business...it appears people minded their own business
since a cry of 'murder' hardly elicited a response...routine stuff...
Also, I do think JtR was cunning and composed...the other murders seem
to indicate this so I can see him doing some cleanup....looking out the
window when it was time to go and quietly locking the door in whatever way
this was done....it does seem a bit preposterous that no one would have
witnessed anything but such is the nature of the JtR mystery and why
we remain fascinated............

P.S. I think your first observation about the room is the correct one and I
don't think Hutch witnessed JtR hacking away...........unless of course you
believe one theory that Hutch was JtR.......had been stalking Kelly and stole
the key.......that's a good one..........


Greg

[FutureM.D.]

In the photo of Millers court there are two sets of windows: I'm assuming that if's the right of the two, (and the lower right hand frame of that) which McCarthys assistant would have looked through when he saw Mary's body and also the same area from which you could open the door. Is this correct?

Where I'm still confused:

1) Where were the bed and table as seen in relation to the broken window? Were they directly accross from the window in a parallel fashion such as seen in MJK2? Meaning is what we see in MJK 2 the exact view that would have been gained looking through the window?

Looking at the room diagram this seems accurate to me, but I heard it suggested in my original thread that there was A THIRD SET OF WINDOWS directly above the bedsite table and next to the door, so when the assistant looked through he would be looking directly down (more or less) on Kelly's body.

2) In looking at the photo of Millers Court the bottom right window looks to far to reasonably unlatch the door.

WHY I CARE:

1) The fire was burning brightly (hot enough to melt the kettle), and based on the testimony of Cox, Pickett, Prater and Hutchinson I get the impression that Dorset street and the other surrounding streets were fairly packed with persons at all hours of the night. When I invision the Kelly murder I don't imagine this being a quite affair: I imagine much struggle and movement and I don't see someone in the throws of a violent lust murder being calm, composed and above all SILENT when he's hacking a body apart.

Given the hot (bright) fire, in a fairly traveled area, the almost certain noise... How likely is it that a blood soaked (how could he not be, none of the burned clothes were for men) killer in a hightened emotional state really got away without attracting any attention whatsoever? Is it atleast possible that Hutchinson who was known to be in the area, got a glimpse through the window and for whatever reason (likely fear of disbelief or accusal of himself by the police) didn't run to the nearest p.c.? And that is where he got such an increadible description?

2) I recall reading in the Mammoth Book of JTR that there was a missing key to 13 Millers Court (presumed to be in the possession of Barnett). I also recall that the door had to be broken in by McCarthy because it was locked after the murder. How would the killer have relatched the entry? Would he really be in such a calm and collected manner after what he did to think to reach through a broken window to lock it in increasingly brighter streets while needing to escape?

I'm sure I'm just missing information because these points just don't seem to fit to me. Any help is, as always, appreciated.