Objects from Mary Kelly's room

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jane!

Oh-oh... E.A.Poe is one of my favourite writers!

Well, could be one...

All the best
Jukka

[Jane Coram]

Hi Jukka,

It could well be a bit of clothing, but coming from the East End, when someone mentions a white thing with a handle under the bed the first thing that comes to mind is a pi** pot. It's called an Edgar Allan Poe or just Edgar Allan for short in Cockney rhyming slang.

Actually, although it's not mentioned or seen in the shots, Mary would certainly have had a chamber pot or a bucket in the room to wee in at night. In fact, without grossing people out, they would almost certainly have done all of their business in it at night, and just put something over the top if there was any solid matter in there to stop it stinking. They would then just go and empty it down the loo in the morning, or possibly even down the drain in the yard next to Mary's room (under the pump), if it was an open drain.

The toilets were right at the other end of the court, and no way would Mary or Joe have walked all the way down there, to do their business on a freezing, rainy night!

Up until I was 22 and I slept in a bed with my Nan, we always had a bucket in the bedroom at night because the loo was outside in the yard, with two flights of stairs in between. It was just what people did in the East End (and probably in a lot of places) right up until the 1970s, if they were living in the old slums that were still around at the time. We were only allowed to wee in it though.

So although it's not mentioned, there would certainly have been a pi** pot or a bucket in Mary's room somewhere for emergencies in the middle of the night.

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jane!

Well, when I made the blue square to cover the body;

I thought, that that white thing under the bed could be a piece of clothing!

All the best
Jukka

[Jane Coram]

Hi Guys and Gals,

I've attached another version of the Fisherman's Widow, but I think there was one other that's been discussed as a likely. This one is a good contender though. I've forgotten the name of the artist, but I'm sure someone will know it and post up. It was over the mantelpiece by the way, not on a side table.

Just off the top of my head here's everything I can remember from Mary's room, that was either listed by the police, mentioned in newspaper reports and been substantiated, or actually visible in photographs. Good game this. Lol.

Right here goes - starting at the door and working around the room anti-clockwise.

One bed, largish single size.

One washstand -- which might have been moved at some point.

One bolster -- (a type of pillow used to prop a person up a bit more in bed) (If anyone starts talking about the bolster, they die a painful death. )

A top and bottom bed sheet and couple of pillows.

One or more blankets or possibly eiderdown, rolled up.

One broken back chair containing a pile of Mary's unfolded (in a heap and dangling) clothes.

One other hard back chair.

Two tables, one by the door and one by the window

A cupboard containing crockery and some stale bread.

A clay pipe on the mantelpiece. (Probably one of Joe's he'd left behind)

Some empty ginger beer bottles.

The remains of a farthing dip candle in a broken? wine bottle.

The curtain nearest the door appears to have had a curtain of some sort over it at least, according to Bowyer's testimony. (The man's pilot coat was left earlier by Maria Harvey and we don't actually know if Mary of her killer put it up at the window.)

Not sure if the other window had a curtain over it, but probably.

One tin bath under the bed.

If there was anything else under the bed (the white thing that someone mentioned) it was probably a chamber pot.

I can't think of anything else, but I bet I've missed something obvious! I quite enjoyed that.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Tenth Bell]

?door

Isn't there supposed to be a door on that [far] wall to Mary's RIGHT [what we refer to as the "partition"? I think that in Simon Wood's study of the room layout and proposed camera angles, there is a door roughly where the wash-stand would be...

Suzi, I do see your point. But here is Wood's dissertation that I was making reference to:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/room-13-millers-court.html

If you look, the "pink area" to the right of the bed looks exactly like the (architectural) layout symbol used to indicate a door on a floorplan - and matches the symbol used for #13's actual door.

Thoughts??

[JosephDurham]

Look directly under the head of the bed, to the right of the image, there is something there with a white handle, perhaps a makeup box or something of the sort.

Joseph

[Suzi]

Another Fisherman's Widow

The Fisherman's Widow'-Charles James Lewis (1830-1892)*

(Haven't found out the date of the painting/prints yet though)

More than likely nothing to do with it - but interesting- I prefer the other one! x

[Why we imagine it to be 'The Other One' and in landscape format I don't know]

*Lots of crosses there- sure I saw an FM in the grass there somewhere!!!.....................

Suzi x

[Suzi]

There's the tin bath under the bed and the heavy duty dark coloured serge coat (which could have been many things) over the holes in the windows.
Great stuff there Chris
TB -Probably not- in fact I'm sure not a 'door' as such but just a 'partition' made up of panelling that may have contained parts of a door maybe. The drawing makes Mary's 12'x 13' ish room look huge!!! and there's a LOT of shall we say 'wrong impressions' in that one!
The Fisherman's Widow- another thread in itself could be many prints (unlikely to be a painting) of the time...there's a LOT of work on this proabaility on cb!

Suzi

[Tenth Bell]

Isn't there supposed to be a door on that [far] wall to Mary's RIGHT [what we refer to as the "partition"? I think that in Simon Wood's study of the room layout and proposed camera angles, there is a door roughly where the wash-stand would be...

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

One thing to see all that could be seen might be by covering the body and thus getting one's eyes more to the things on the crime scene photo.

Maybe nothing essentially new on the photo, but the persons with a brighter eye-sight could possibly spot something!

All the best
Jukka

[Tenth Bell]

in continuing #13 room item discussion...

Press sketches include a washstand, which included a cup on a lower shelf [ if one observes closely] it would appear that this stand was originally to the right of the bed against the partition, and moved behind the head of the bed as that item was moved futher down the room up against the partition wall.

Greetings to all,

This statement confuses me a bit. As I understand that the existence as well as potential placement of the washstand has been debated at some length, are you suggesting, Richard, in the above quote, that the washstand pictured up against the partition in the sketch eventually made its way to {behind} the headboard of the bed - not necessarily because it was moved - but instead, because the bed was slid [WEST] in the sketch, coming to rest then just to the LEFT of the washstand and now resting firmly against the partition [to Mary's RIGHT side] of the bed? Sorry for such a long sentence.
So in other words, if that is the suggestion, when, then, was the bed moved so that the washstand would be to the head of the bed, and by whom? Apparently the illustrator for the press viewed it as being where it is in the sketch. Possibly the bed was moved by police/medical examiner after the sketch was made - during the ensuing hours of the 9th November while they made their assessments? But again, reason for this? And furthermore, that washstand would be showered in blood if it was where the sketch suggests it was during the slaughter. Unless Mary was strangled first - and then the carotid arterial spray would be much discernably "less like a spray" if the heart was no longer beating.
Beating heart during first cut, on the other hand = profound arterial spray. And not to mention that denuded Right femur - which would have been nearly just adjacent to said washstand.
Does anyone think that the newspaper or police "sketch artist" would have "augmented" things a bit in the illustration, in an attempt to place his own little 'spin' on the scene ... 'artistic license', if you will? Food for thought.

Nice to be on Casebook on this dreary day at 'work' :}}

Chris

[Chris Scott]

As far as I'm aware the objects listed were the bed, two tables and at least one chair. Drawings in the press at the time seem to show some kind of washstand but this is disputed. Various smaller items such as ginger beer bottle and half a candle were also noted.
The painting (actually this would have been a print or cheap engraving) has been named as the Fisherman's Widow and this has been variously identified with known paintings.
There are also apocryphal (and almost certainly inaccurate) reports such as the alleged 300 year old document found in Kelly's room which makes mention of an address in "Bartholomew Lane."
I'm posting a pic of this below BUT I must stress that no credence can be place in the finding of this object in Kelly's room

[Adam Went]

Not sure if it really fits into this category, but there was also an old coat that was hanging over her window to protect from the outdoor elements since the glass pane had been broken. Walter Dew described this many years later.

The room was very small though, and there was very little to speak of in the way of furnishings or objects at all, apart from this and what has already been mentioned above.

Cheers,
Adam.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Clark,
Nobody knows the full contents of kellys room, and the rooms inventory available is very basic.
We are aware of what we can see for ourselves ie, table/tin bath/bed.. other items described, include table and two chairs [ one broken backed] a pipe /picture[ The fishermans widow] some items belonging to Mrs Harvey, and kellys clothes[ not described].some ginger beer bottles and utensils
Press sketches include a washstand, which included a cup on a lower shelf [ if one observes closely] it would appear that this stand was originally to the right of the bed against the partition, and moved behind the head of the bed as that item was moved futher down the room up against the partition wall.
I am sure detectives at the scene made a full inventory of that room, but unfortunately that is not present in any files, and proberly destroyed , like many other documents during the blitz.
Regards Richard.

[clark2710]

Are these things that are actually from the room? For instance, is the side table the one you see from the photo where the Ripper placed things? Things actually from the room is what i mean are those things you're talking about and if so how did you come to hear of such things and how are they authenticated to have been in her room at the time of the murder?