Welsh Mining Disasters

[Sam Flynn]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Kelly's soldier visitor was a paramour rather than her brother. Hence I anticipate another dead end in this context.

Hi Garry,

Might I suggest that you (or anyone else for that matter ) check out the following:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...02&postcount=5

I still rate this as the likeliest family match I've found... for what it's worth!

[Chava]

..and a bit cat-among-the-pigeons here. But do we know for sure she was Irish? I've heard differing accounts of her accent. If she was irish and moved as a young girl to Wales I'd expect her to have more of a Welsh accent. My daughter lost her English accent and picked up a Canadian one right quick after we moved here. MJK's account has her living in Wales since she was around 7. If she lies about stuff--and I'm sure she does--why wouldn't she lie about that? She may as well have been born Mary Jane Griffifths as Mary Jane Kelly.

[Chava]

Here's the thing: if the guy in the Welsh Guards was in fact a boyfriend rather than a brother, then that's likely where she got the name Kelly. I'll have to check, but she got mail from this fellow, didn't she? She could have lived with him for a while, called herself Kelly because that was his name, and moved on from there. Which means that 'Kelly' is likely the deadest of dead-ends.

I'm back to the drawing-board. But something in that sob-story has to be true! Even if it's a tiny little detail...

[The Good Michael]

I was thinking that maybe a Maire ni chailleach might be a name to look for in the Welsh census and maybe in Ireland in Limerick. My guess is that she would have used the Irish spelling had she really been Irish and from that far west.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

Hi Jukka,

I didn't know that.
There is even not much about his brother in Chris Scott's book.

Amitiés,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello David!

But so many of us have tried to find the brother and Mary as well...

Well, we are all searching that crucial needle in a haystack here!

All the best
Jukka

[DVV]

Hi Garry,

You're too pessimistic!
I'm not (must be the sweet weather announcing spring in Provence).
Let's check the records first, if possible.

Amitiés,
David

[Garry Wroe]

The problem being, though, Dave, that if Kelly was an assumed name, her brother would not have been called Kelly either. Besides which, I have a sneaking suspicion that Kelly's soldier visitor was a paramour rather than her brother. Hence I anticipate another dead end in this context.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

Simon Wood has provided evidence that the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards was indeed in Ireland in 1888.
Just as Barnett said. And how could he know that ? It cannot be a fabricated story. He must have learnt this from Mary.
If we could find one Henry Kelly (or John Kelly?) in the army archives...then we could say for sure MJK is MJK.

Amitiés all,
David

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

The best maybe so far, I think, is the one presented on the "Dissertations" section called "The origins of Mary Kelly" by Peter Birchwood. However, it's far from perfect, as usual with MJK's backround research...

One tiny clue was found by Gareth. "Mary Ballina", a singer in a Vaudeville group. There was no "Ballina" in the LVP census as a last-name, but a small town in Limerick.

So; the only piece of art, that is known about MJK, is singing. Since she talked about Limerick concerning her backround, "Mary Ballina" could be "our" Mary.

However, probably there aren't any clues about her either...

All the best
Jukka

[Chris Scott]

One other alleged incident for which records would certainly have existed is her alleged lengthy stay in the Cardiff infirmary. But we have to be careful in that if memory serves me right there was more than one such institution in Cardiff.
Might be worth checking the 1881 census as this was just about the time she was supposed to be there (after the death of her husband)
Barnett said she married when just sixteen (about 1879) and the husband died 18 months to 2 years after
Might be worth checking for French born women living in Knightsbridge in 1881 to see what sort of household they ran - look for disproportionate number of young women from varying parts of the country...
Happy hunting!

[tnb]

Excellent work Chava (as ever). I am going to get a bit picky about Welsh geography now, but only in the spirit of investigation. I am in no way saying your find could not be correct. After all, that's the problem with MJK isn't it - it's so hard to know which (if any) pieces of info to include or exclude, and each seems to mitigate against the other the more searching you do, and change the whole picture.

However, as Gareth would no doubt point out with much more authority, Abercarn is an awful long way from any potential mispronunciaton/mishearing of 'Carmarthen' (it is even further from the real one), the nearest I can find being Cwmafan which is a touch under 48 miles away, and which I know has been mentioned by Gareth in the past as a possible alternative for the 'Carmarthen' allegedly mentioned to Barnett by Kelly.

Interestingly, however, it is much closer (a rough 10 miles) from Cwmbran (Carm-braan in the same kind of English mispronunciation which could render Carmarthen, Caernarfon and Cwmafan as near-hononyms - and of which I was regularly guilty when I first moved to Wales!). Indeed, the area's postal address now is Abercarn, Cwmbran (much the same as Cwmafan, Neath, for example). It's only one syllable of course but is it out of the question that Kelly's Irish tinted 'Cwmbran' came across as something more akin to 'Carm-bran', and that when a forgetful Barnett tried desperately (and under interrogation) to remember the place she had mentioned, that if he had heard of, say, Carmarthen, or Caernarfon, that he came up with the wrong one?

It seems a little far fetched, but there it is. Make of it what you will.

[Chava]

Hi Chris!

You've done amazing work in this area!

If her name was entirely made-up we'll never find her. I am going under the (dangerous) assumption that some form of Mary was her first name so I've been checking Marie/Mari/Moira/Mairead. I also think she likely had two names because people who go by different names tend to use the same kind of cadence as their real names. So I've also been checking Mary Anne as well as variations of Jane.

The other thing I'm looking for is the ironmaster of Carmarthen/Caernarvon. Her dad may well have come across to the mainland to work in an ironworks. That part may be true. As for the husband, I long thought it was an affecting story made up for the punters, but it's something else that could well be true so that's why I started hunting down disasters. Interestingly there aren't all that many Davies/Davis explosion victims that are the right age. But I've checked all the ones I can find and I don't think any of them are right for Mary Jane.

I'm not buying her story that Marie Jeanette was her real name. I think that's highly unlikely and was probably used to tone her image up a little with the tricks. I don't think passports were in general use during the time she apparently went to France, but it's entirely possible that she did go. There were a lot of UK tarts in Dieppe bordels and probably all along the Channel coast.

Also I think we need to add a couple of years or so to her apparent age. I doubt she'd tell the truth about that...

[Chris Scott]

One question that is important in the search is this:
Even if every other aspect of the story as related by Barnett were true, if the woman's name was NOT Mary Jane Kelly or any feasible variant thereof, would we stand any chance of finding out who she really was?

Without a name to work from the task seems hopeless. Even statetments from Barnett that seem precise and concrete drift through our fingers like smoke if we do not know her name. His assertion that she was legally married to a miner named Davies who died in an explosion some time in the early 1880s is soon revealed as a hydra to the researcher. At that period mine deaths were, sadly, far from uncommon and looking for a Davies in Wales is an archivist's nightmare!
There are still lots of loose ends that MAY one day be revealed from other sources such as:
- Who was Mrs Buki?
- Who was the French woman who ran the "gay house" in Knightsbridge?
- Is there any record of Kelly's alleged trip to France in 1884 or early 1885?
- What was the origin of the other names in the early press reports - Lawrence, Fisher and Mccarthy?
- Why was Barnett insistent that the French form of her name (Marie Jeanette) was the true form given her at birth and not some affectation from her days in France?
There may one day be an earthshattering breakthrough but, personally, I doubt it. Small nuggets of information are more likely in my opinion.

Personally I find the most frustrating thing is that we are almost certainly looking at records of her without knowing it. If the outline of the Barnett story is true we would expect her to appear in the official record at least 4 times:
the 1871 census (presumably in Wales) when she would have been about 8
the 1881 census
a marriage certificate
a death certificate
The last is the only one we know and that bears the version of her name as supplied by Barnett.

All I can say is rest in peace, Mary Jane, and maybe one day we will put a name to you.

Chris S

[Chava]

I know, I know. I've checked everyone out as well. But I'm convinced that Mary Jane Kelly wasn't her name, so I'm certain we won't be able to find her on those names. It's true that her story could be 100% fiction. However I think there might be some tiny little chunks of substance there, because it's really hard to remember a story that's completely made-up.