How long was the killer in the room?

[Sam Flynn]

We're straying WAY off the topic of "how long he was in the room" here, folks!

[Observer]

Hello!

If Kelly met her killer on the street, and took him back to her room, then the whole argument of the locked door evaporates. Kelly lets him in, and he drops the latch on the way out, no problem. The locked door only becomes contentious with the intruder scenario.

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Ben

Eastenders were not in the habit of locking their doors? Not even single women during the height of the Ripper murders? As I said Prater had her head srewed on, she barricaded her door. I'll admit Cox makes no reference to Kelly using the window to open her door though.

all the best

Observer

[KatBradshaw]

Hello!

I actually don't think that the killer entered the room unannounced. I think she met him on the street.
My point about the lock is just that if you are drunk you may not really think about it.

[Observer]

Hi Kat

I'm looking at in a very human way, Prater put furniture against her door before going to bed. I find it hard to believe kelly did not slip the latch. And how did her killer know the door was unlocked? Are we assuming that JTR went around trying doors in the early hours of the morning? Or are we assuming that Kelly knew her killer, and he knew full well that Kelly's door would be unlocked?

all the best

Observer

[KatBradshaw]

Playing devil's advocate. Good for you, always useful when we don't really know.
I think he did though. I think that some of the organs etc were carefully placed and I think he took time to savour the action. Thats just my opinion though.

[Pontius2000]

Well I may not agree with it but you make you case very clearly and well!

I'm not saying Maxwell was right. what I'm saying is that her story is credible enough that she should have at least been taken seriously as a witness. of course, the whole MJK inquest was a joke anyway.

but yes, I do think Hutchinson's whole story is a farce and I don't believe MJK screamed "murder!". and back to the point of the thread, I don't think JtR was in the room for more than 30 minutes.

[KatBradshaw]

because her time matches with the evidence of the food in the stomach and the rigor mortis. one can speculate WHY the food wasn't fully digested or why rigor mortis hadn't fully set in, but it's speculation. I see no reason why she would lie. she would have made herself more valuable to the everyone if her testimony had matched the other witnesses. but she stuck with her story and wasn't taken seriously.

then you have Hutchinson, who basically admits that for some unknown reason, he was stalking MJK. his story reeks of someone who has built up an elaborate story to impress everyone with. I think it's likely that he spoke to her and told her that he was broke, and that it's possible he saw her talking to a man. but I think that's where the story ends. I don't think he would have any reason to try to get a close look at the man's face and I don't think he did. and I don't think he waited around for them to come out of the room. unless of course he WAS stalking MJK. and if that's the case, he would or should have been a police suspect.

I think Hutchinson's story is pretty unbelievable. I don't think anything in Maxwell's story is unbelievable.

Well I may not agree with it but you make you case very clearly and well!

[Ben]

Hi Ben

I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that Kelly had a means of locking her door and failed to do so on the night of her murder. Bearing in mind her concern at the thought of a killer on the loose, I find it hard to belive that after retiring for the night she did not put the latch down, in effect locking herself in her room.

all the best

Observer

Hi Observer,

Cox's evidence is consistent, at the very least, with a failure to lock her door when she was away from the premises, and there's no evidence that Kelly remedied this situation after she returned with the Blotchy man either. Indeed, given her obviously intoxicated and ostensibly carefree attitude shortly before midnight, she could easily have neglected to unlatch her door. She may have reasoned, quite logically, that a broken window in such close proximity to a locking mechanism rendered the act of locking a door rather pointless anyway. We have, in addition, the observation from Chief Inspector Moore that Eastenders were generally in the habit of failing to lock their doors.

Best regards,
Ben

[Pontius2000]

Sorry I wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to suggest that they in anyway conflicted.
Why do you think that Maxwell's evidence was perhaps moreso likely?

Thanks
Kate

because her time matches with the evidence of the food in the stomach and the rigor mortis. one can speculate WHY the food wasn't fully digested or why rigor mortis hadn't fully set in, but it's speculation. I see no reason why she would lie. she would have made herself more valuable to the everyone if her testimony had matched the other witnesses. but she stuck with her story and wasn't taken seriously.

then you have Hutchinson, who basically admits that for some unknown reason, he was stalking MJK. his story reeks of someone who has built up an elaborate story to impress everyone with. I think it's likely that he spoke to her and told her that he was broke, and that it's possible he saw her talking to a man. but I think that's where the story ends. I don't think he would have any reason to try to get a close look at the man's face and I don't think he did. and I don't think he waited around for them to come out of the room. unless of course he WAS stalking MJK. and if that's the case, he would or should have been a police suspect.

I think Hutchinson's story is pretty unbelievable. I don't think anything in Maxwell's story is unbelievable.

[KatBradshaw]

Hi Ben

I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that Kelly had a means of locking her door and failed to do so on the night of her murder. Bearing in mind her concern at the thought of a killer on the loose, I find it hard to belive that after retiring for the night she did not put the latch down, in effect locking herself in her room.

all the best

Observer

Well its not totally inbelievable if she was drunk. Maybe it just wasn't in her habit. People do leave doors open even to this day! Maybe you are looking at it in too much of a 21st Century way.

[Observer]

Hi Ben

I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that Kelly had a means of locking her door and failed to do so on the night of her murder. Bearing in mind her concern at the thought of a killer on the loose, I find it hard to belive that after retiring for the night she did not put the latch down, in effect locking herself in her room.

all the best

Observer

[KatBradshaw]

Hutchinson seeing MJK is a point to work from. but that does not conflict with Maxwell's account.

MJK heard singing is also a point to work from, but that doesn't conflict with Maxwell's account either.

someone heard leaving the court that is full of residents is not a point to work from, sorry. up to 50,000 lived in the immediate area around Miller's Court. there is no proof at all that the person heard leaving the court was JtR. it could've been anyone. just as someone screaming "murder" is also not a point to work from as there is no proof it was MJK and if it were her, it should have been much louder given her proximity to the witness.

the evidence that Maxwell gave was just as likely as any other witness, perhaps moreso.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to suggest that they in anyway conflicted.
Why do you think that Maxwell's evidence was perhaps moreso likely?

Thanks
Kate

[Pontius2000]

On a serious note though we KNOW Kelly was heard singing at a certain time. We are lead to believe that Hutch saw her at a certain time. We are also told that a person was heard leaving the court (for whatever purpose) at a certain time. This means that we do have fixed points to work from.

This isn't a post about Caroline Maxwell and her testimony but we do have to remember that she was repeatedly given the facts that showed what she saud was wrong. That she stuck to it is either proof that she was telling the truth or was convinced of her own belief so much she didn't break. That does not make her right.

Hutchinson seeing MJK is a point to work from. but that does not conflict with Maxwell's account.

MJK heard singing is also a point to work from, but that doesn't conflict with Maxwell's account either.

someone heard leaving the court that is full of residents is not a point to work from, sorry. up to 50,000 lived in the immediate area around Miller's Court. there is no proof at all that the person heard leaving the court was JtR. it could've been anyone. just as someone screaming "murder" is also not a point to work from as there is no proof it was MJK and if it were her, it should have been much louder given her proximity to the witness.

the evidence that Maxwell gave was just as likely as any other witness, perhaps moreso.

[Ben]

Hi Observer,

In other words Mary Kelly, and Barnett while he lived there, didn't need a key to enter the room?

Precisely.

With regard to the the "window trick", bear in mind that Barnett was relating his experiences of living in room #13 with Kelly at the time. We have no idea if Kelly continued that practise after Barnett left, and if Cox's evidence is anything to go on, she probably didn't.

All the best,
Ben