Did Mary know her attacker?

[Varqm]

However I feel if we are looking for reasons to believe that Kelly may have known her attacker or her attacker was stalking her or if Kelly was a copy cat crime, then the fact that he, Jack or somebody else, struck Mary the first real chance he had to do so is an interesting reason.

Your friend, Brad

I think it was more or less two days after Maria Harvey left he struck.
It's the same with Eddowes. Eddowes stayed in the casual ward after her return from Kent. She was killed the first night/early morning she was out in the streets.
Both of them happened after the Chapman murder when people/police became aware that there is a killer of the type Jack was and the first sign of the mobs forming and perhaps police reinforcement. Perhaps partly affected by the above events or not,it's not hard for me to believe that there was a slight change in the way jack found/choose his victims.

[Sam Flynn]

In all probability, this was a very common picture. A prostitute, abandoned by her husband, calling herself a seamstress - and entertaining numerous visitors in as discreet a manner as possible - in her room. The same would have applied for many, many other "unfortunates", I suspect.

...well, at least to those comparatively rare birds who had a private room to themselves.

Good post, Fisherman.

[Fisherman]

I think that the ongoing discussion of whether prostitutes brought clients to their rooms or not is a strange one. It has been thrown forward that they may have seen their rooms as sanctuarys away from the trade, but to my mind that is a romanticizing suggestion that would not have applied to those involved. These women made no secret of what they were doing, and their trade was something that some of them HAD to resort to, given the economical circumstances offered.

This is what was said by witness Rose Bierman about Ada Wilson, sometimes regarded an early Ripper victim. They were neighbours on Maidman Street, Mile End, and Wilsons occupation is typically given as "seamstress":

"I knew Mrs. Wilson as a married woman, although I had never seen her husband. Last evening she came into the house accompanied by a male companion, but whether he was her husband or not I could not say. She has often had visitors to see her, but I have rarely seen them myself, as Mrs. Wilson lives in the front room, her bedroom being just at the back, adjoining the parlour." (Eastern Post and City Chronicle, 31.3 1888).

In all probability, this was a very common picture. A prostitute, abandoned by her husband, calling herself a seamstress - and entertaining numerous visitors in as discreet a manner as possible - in her room. The same would have applied for many, many other "unfortunates", I suspect.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

Well we know she brought Blotchy-Face home. But I'm not certain she brought everyone back there. Mary Ann Cox clearly was 'unfortunate' but the way she testified at the inquest suggested to me that she wasn't bringing tricks back to her room. It doesn't sound like Lizzie Prater was doing that either. All that to-ing and fro-ing would eat into precious trick time...

...what if they bumped into a "trick" near the junctions of Dorset and Commercial-streets? They'd hardly be inclined to wander a few hundred yards further from home in search of a dark alley when they were within easy walking distance of their own private rooms.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Mike,
Just to correct a point, Barnett stopped using her room on the 30th October, just ten days before her death, hense not a two month span.
Ir would appear from witnesses that Mjk was very much on the game and that would have included pre the 30th october.
There is a hear say tale of kelly ofter returning to her room with sailors complete with a bottle under her arm, and often singing or being noisy, also of her using other peoples accomodation to service men.
I would suggest it is very clear that J Barnett objected very strongly to her offering herself,[ quite understandably] and she tried to conduct business away from his knowledge.
I also suggest that the sleepovers that kelly brought home were done for two reasons , a few extra coppers, and company at nights, the latter being the main reason.
The amount of preaching from her man [ Barnett] the reading of all the gory bits refering to the murders, according to her friend Lottie brought on her nightmare in which she was 'Being murdered' and therefore she was extremely scared of being in the room [ that she had her dream] alone..
On the eve of her death she ventured out , observed by Prater wearing a coat and bonnet. yet at midnight she is observed with Blotchy face wearing different clothing[ by cox],
That raises several points.
Was Prater lying ?
Was Cox lying?
Or did MJK return to her room to dress up?
Prater seems to give a truthful account as little snipits such as.
I dont own a coat or bonnet....
She said goodnight 'My Pretty' the name she always called me.
Mrs cox however appears less then honest.
She reports that she saw 'Blotchy face' in her police statement, yet told her neice years later 'He was a real toff', also why would kelly return home to get changed from her sunday best ,to her shawl and shabby dress, in which according to Cox she was wearing at midnight?.
I have strong doubts if Blotchy face ever exsisted, and a far better account would be that kelly was alone in her room and singing by herself at the time she was heard.
I have a strong hunch that Kelly whilst dressed up on the thursday evening met a respectably dressed man [ arranged] and he offered to take her to the 'Lord mayors show the next morning, i believe that Hutchinson saw this man in commercial road at the time he said, and dressed in the attire he mentioned .
Hutchinson having missed his time to get into the Victoria home thought mayby Mary could let me doss for the night for sixpence, and he followed the man down the street into Dorset street and into millers court, where to his surprise entered by invitation in Kellys room.
He waited opposite the court for some time out of curiosity and then believing he had no chance of a doss moved on.
On the monday he told a lot of the truth but left out kellys meeting with Astracan and walking back with him as he wanted to assist the police without hinting his real reason for being in Dorset street at that hour was to call on kelly, also giving a explanation for being there ie 'I followed them out of curiosity'.
Just my thoughts.
Regards Richard,

[The Good Michael]

Kelly had a room to herself after Barnett left, or to be more accurate, after he lost his job and Kelly had to go back to work. She may have even been bringing tricks back for all we know, when Barnett was there. We know she had prostitute friends over at her place, so why not men along with girlfriends?
I don't think there can be any doubt that she used her apartment as well as the streets, and probably as well as other peoples' apartments to earn a living.

Mike

[Chava]

Well we know she brought Blotchy-Face home. But I'm not certain she brought everyone back there. Mary Ann Cox clearly was 'unfortunate' but the way she testified at the inquest suggested to me that she wasn't bringing tricks back to her room. It doesn't sound like Lizzie Prater was doing that either. All that to-ing and fro-ing would eat into precious trick time...

[The Good Michael]

Brad,

Let my dismiss your argument about Kelly's killer being other than the Ripper because he killed her at his first opportunity. From this, I take it to mean that after Barnett left her, he struck at his first opportunity. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Barnett left at least as late as early September, by his testimony, and yet she was killed 2 months later. Surely, anyone stalking her would have found an earlier opportunity? As NOV9 suggests that the killer was someone who hated her; had a grudge against her, then this argument fails for the same reason. Why wait two months, and only on the weekend? I can't for the life of me understand why this would have been the best opportunity. Please explain why to me.

This killing was, in my mind, an opportunistic one, but not of a stalker or a vengeful lover, but opportunistic in the same way his other murders were. She was there when he was prowling, and she fell victim. It is just that simple, in my mind. Then again, the burden is not on me to prove anything.

Mike

[Dan Norder]

why would he follow Mary to a place he may or not have studied to ensure his escape?

Presumably to kill her, I would imagine.

Just like he did with his other victims.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nov9,

Can you say for certain that Kelly did not do the same as the other girls?

I'm sure Kelly did her share of "twopenny uprights" in dark alleys like the rest of "her class". There is testimony to the effect that she was indeed a streetwalker, as indeed many women in her situation then were. However, unlike many in her position, Kelly did have a private room at her disposal in which to entertain the occasional client if she chose.

[NOV9]

But the others serviced their customers on the streets, up against walls, on public stairs, in back yards, down dark alleyways, in parks or anywhere suitable they could find. That's because the others, unlike Kelly, did not have the luxury of their own private accommodation.

Can you say for certain that Kelly did not do the same as the other girls?

Think about it? Jack was a Raptor type killer working his site with escape routes, why would he follow Mary to a place he may or not have studied to ensure his escape? As soon as she turned her back on him, in his kill site he would have taken her down. Jack style.

This is just my opinion because I was not there.

[celee]

Hi all,

However I feel if we are looking for reasons to believe that Kelly may have known her attacker or her attacker was stalking her or if Kelly was a copy cat crime, then the fact that he, Jack or somebody else, struck Mary the first real chance he had to do so is an interesting reason.

Your friend, Brad

I am interested in knowing what you all feel about this statement?

Your friend, Brad

[Sam Flynn]

That is true she did.

But she did not die the way the others did, on the street.

But the others serviced their customers on the streets, up against walls, on public stairs, in back yards, down dark alleyways, in parks or anywhere suitable they could find. That's because the others, unlike Kelly, did not have the luxury of their own private accommodation.

[NOV9]

Kelly worked the streets, too.

That is true she did.

But she did not die the way the others did, on the street.

[Dan Norder]

This is another one of those questions that can never be answered. There's absolutely nothing of any substance that suggests that Mary Kelly had to have known her killer, and there's nothing that can rule it out as a possibility either. Most serial killers pick strangers, but once in a while they do kill someone they know. There's no ground for any firm conclusion, but if we go by the probabilities, based upon other previous cases of this type, they point away from her having known her killer, not toward it.