Open or Closed-Probabilities

[Sam Flynn]

If a person can be heard moving about the interior of a room, through the wall of an adjacent room or apartment, then I agree that it is perfectly plausible for a witness to have heard a shout

Problem is, Elizabeth Prater only testified to hearing movements in Kelly's room in the same context as she mentioned being able to see light through the thin partition, i.e. as she climbed the stairs.

"On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceased's room. I might not have noticed it; I did not take particular notice - I could have heard her moving if she had moved. I went in [to my room] about 1:30 and put two tables against the door." (Inquest deposition of Elizabeth Stride).

Nowhere does Prater state explicitly that she could hear Kelly move about from the vantage-point of her (Prater's) bedroom. The only parts of Prater's testimony which relate to her hearing sounds from her own room was in answer to a question about whether she'd heard tables or chairs being pulled about in #13 after hearing the cry of "Murder!" and, of course, the cry of "Murder!" itself.

[Steve S]

I know it may sound obvious......But as both 'earwitnesses' weren't fully awake,there must be some doubt over their ideas of where the noise came from........speaking from when I've heard things when I'm just/half awake........
Steve

[Mutt]

If a person can be heard moving about the interior of a room, through the wall of an adjacent room or apartment, then I agree that it is perfectly plausible for a witness to have heard a shout, scream or loud voice from a closed apartment or room. Perrymason indicates that the shouts are heard by the witnesses in the center of this case’s timeline.

The timeline as I understand it:
11:30pm - Thursday Evening - Victim seen walking towards home(2).
03:45am - Friday Morning - Loud shouts or exclamations heard.
10:45am - Friday Morning - Victim's Body discovered(1).

The fact that no indication of forced entry is made by the police leads me to believe that the victim brought her killer into her room or that she allowed the killer into her apartment by opening the door and consenting to entry. You raise an interesting possibility – that the victim was taken unawares in her room by a burglar / killer who utilized an unlocked door. However, given the facts of this case, I would submit that this is an unlikely scenario.

The fact that the victim was a prostitute cannot be overlooked. The hi-risk profession that Mary Kelly engaged in makes her a likely candidate for being victimized. Hookers approach their killers, and do not have to be sought out, the victim does the seeking. With this in mind, I find it difficult to avoid the assumption that the killer was approached on the street by the victim OR that the killer was known to the victim. If this is a Ripper murder, then the first scenario is more likely.

(1) The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, page 373
(2) Ibid, page 375

Hi all,

Ive had this discussion with some members here, but I dont believe we discussed this on its own thread.....so here it is....

At approx 3:45am on November 9th, 1888, both Elizabeth Prater...just woken by her cat Diddles, and Sarah Lewis.....dozing in a chair at the Keylers, heard a woman cry out "oh-murder". Elizabeth said she heard it "as if from the court", and Sarah heard it "as if at her door".

Elizabeth Prater testified that she could hear when Mary moved about in her room when within her own room. I would think that means she could also hear a cry from Mary if made from inside the house. She didnt describe it that way though....she heard it "as if from the court".

We also know that no noise was heard by either woman following that cry.

We know that Marys 2 windows were either 3 rows of 5 small panes across, or 5 rows of 3 panes...(I cant find the picture at the moment that shows this best in my files)...and 2 panes were broken...in the lower right portion, and the upper left portion. One was blocked that night by a pilot coat....and the curtains were closed.

I submit that those 2 small holes would not have been sufficient to allow a cry to be heard semi loudly in Sarahs case and "as if from the court" in Liz Praters case. So, I believe that the cry, if from Mary, was while her door was open.

That would mean she;

1. Opened from the outside by herself and cried out for some reason which is unclear
2. She opened it from inside while alone in response to a knock or a sound that woke her
3. She opened it from inside while with company to find someone unexpected standing there
4. She opened it from the outside while with company and exclaimed for some reason that is unclear

The cat upstairs woke Elizabeth seconds before she heard the voice, suggesting that perhaps the cat was startled by noise from the court or the ground floor of the house. That would support a noise or a knock that precedes the voice.

This may seem a trivial point to some, but it isnt, because if the voice was Marys we know that no noise following it means it wasnt the start of a physical engagement between her and her killer. And its quite likely to me that it would mean that her door was open at the time. If she was alone asleep and wakened by sounds at the door or window, and she answered the door and made her exclamation...then its likely one of surprise, not fear. Which is essentially the import it was given by those 2 women....neither assumed a murder was actually occurring based on their impression of the voice. Despite the obvious use of the word in the exclamation. They had heard this kind of thing before....we hear that from a few witnesses throughout the Canonical cases.

Thats the overview of my position to support the primary question Id love some input on.....assuming the call was from room 13......Could Marys voice have been heard as described by the women if her door was closed?

If it was opened, and done by her from inside.....what does that say about her visitor? At the very least that he intentionally woke her to answer her door.

Best regards all.