Can Mary-Jane Kelly ever be found?!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chava,

Excellent post.

After 119 years of getting nowhere it should have occurred to us all by now that MJK's history was complete fiction.

Regards,

Simon

[Chava]

Guys, I'm sorry but this is nuts! Mary Ballina may have been Mary Kelly, or she may have been Mary O'Leary, or she may have been Theresa Daly. We have no reason to believe that she was the woman in Millers Court. And as far as I can see we have no reason to suppose Kelly was an 'artist' of any kind beyond the fact that she belted out 'It Was Only a Violet' loud enough to bother the neighbours on the night she died. We have no reason to suppose she had an acute sense of humour either. We have a few words of hers as reported by witnesses and none of them are particularly funny.

The big problem is that we are taking Mary Jane Kelly's story at face value. She says she went to France with a gentleman, but I imagine that was only to make herself sound more attractive and exotic. She says she was in a West End fancy house: ditto. She says she was widowed at 16 and lost her young husband in a mining accident. He just happens to have one of the commonest Welsh surnames, and we still can't find an accident that might have killed him. I think that one was to make herself sound more pathetic and to explain to a sentimental punter why she went on the game. Kelly absolutely did not do anything to deserve what happened to her. But please let's not romanticize her. I think she gets this 'artistic' 'sense of humour' stuff because she wasn't toothless and decrepit like the other poor victims. Do we see this kind of stuff in the Nicholls thread or the Chapman thread? How about the Stride thread? Long Liz had a similar sob story to Kelly's. She'd lost her husband and golden haired little children in the Princess Alice. Do we give that a second's worth of credibility? Do we hell. But Kelly's tragically dead young husband? We're chasing down the Rhondda Valley mining disasters like there's no tomorrow.

[Graham]

In the year 1881 there are three children of the names Agnes Mary listed born in Cardiff
Agnes Mary A Luen
Agnes Mary E Murphy
Agnes Mary Pearson
For 1879 the list is:
Agnes Mary S Burns
Agnes Mary Lewis
Agnes Mary Smith
For 1880 the list is:
Agnes Mary Holtham
Agnes Mary Williams

Hi Chris.

Nice work. I wish I had your skill.

I note the surname 'Murphy' - as Irish as you can get. Makes you wonder...

Cheers,

Graham.

[Chris Scott]

In the year 1881 there are three children of the names Agnes Mary listed born in Cardiff
Agnes Mary A Luen
Agnes Mary E Murphy
Agnes Mary Pearson
For 1879 the list is:
Agnes Mary S Burns
Agnes Mary Lewis
Agnes Mary Smith
For 1880 the list is:
Agnes Mary Holtham
Agnes Mary Williams

[Chris Scott]

From the thread "Can Mary Jane ever be found?"

Graham wrote:
I'm still very interested to hear if anyone has any information regarding a supposed daughter of hers who went to live in Bristol. The entry in the A-Z that I couldn't find yesterday is under Allan E. Jones who contributed a piece to Ripperana and mentioned an oral tradition that MJK's daughter was called Agnes Mary and that she lived in Cardiff until 1908 and then moved to Bristol. If anyone can add to this, please do.
Allen E. Jones also said that Agnes Mary lived from 1881 - 1942

In the 1891 census there is no girl of the forenames Agnes Mary listed in Cardiff born in 1881 (+/- 1 year)
There are six girls of the forenames Agnes M of whom five have both parents listed as living in 1891. The exception is listed below:
12 The Parade, Cardiff
Head: Sarah M Pearson aged 36 born London - Matron Instit.
Boarders:
Katherine L Melworth ahed 50 born Maidstone - Housekeeper
Catherine Flynn aged 20 born Not Known - Servant
Maria Hailstone aged 16 born Yorkshire - Servant
Agnes Crome aged 18 born Holywell - Servant
Catherine M Hart aged 22 born Cardiff - Servant
Annie M Bonn aged 13 born Bradford - Servant
Catherine Sullivan aged 14 born Cardiff - Servant
Emma E Prosser aged 14 born Monmouth - Servant
Ada Griffen aged 18 born London - Servant
Agnes M Stevens aged 11 born Cardiff - Servant

[Graham]

Hi GrahamBristol, hmmm. I wonder if there's a connection to the Cardiff-born "Mary Ballina" I found lodging in Bristol? (See Page 1 of this thread.)

Dunno, Sam. Allen E. Jones also said that Agnes Mary lived from 1881 - 1942. I am absolutely useless at scouring censusssesssses and so forth, so haven't checked to see if there was an Agnes Mary Anyone living in Bristol between 1908 and 1942.

I'm just very interested to know how and where Jones came by his information.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Graham

I'm still very interested to hear if anyone has any information regarding a supposed daughter of hers who went to live in Bristol.

Bristol, hmmm. I wonder if there's a connection to the Cardiff-born "Mary Ballina" I found lodging in Bristol? (See Page 1 of this thread.)

[Graham]

Hello Graham!

Since Mary was the most common Irish girl's name and Kelly the second most common last-name of the time, obviously Mary Kelly was a pseudonyme!

What it comes to claims about the Miller's Court woman, there has been loads of theories made.

But there has always been a tiny missing piece;

The solid proof!

All the best
Jukka

Hello Jukka.

I couldn't say that her name was *obviously* a pseudonym. I went out with a girl called Mary Kelly, and she was as Irish as I am - that is, not Irish at all.
Personally, I tend towards the notion that she really was Welsh - there is no evidence as far as I'm aware that she had an Irish accent, but it's said that she did speak Welsh. Whether she spoke it fluently, I don't know.

I'm still very interested to hear if anyone has any information regarding a supposed daughter of hers who went to live in Bristol. The entry in the A-Z that I couldn't find yesterday is under Allan E. Jones who contributed a piece to Ripperana and mentioned an oral tradition that MJK's daughter was called Agnes Mary and that she lived in Cardiff until 1908 and then moved to Bristol. If anyone can add to this, please do.

Cheers,

Graham

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Graham!

Since Mary was the most common Irish girl's name and Kelly the second most common last-name of the time, obviously Mary Kelly was a pseudonyme!

What it comes to claims about the Miller's Court woman, there has been loads of theories made.

But there has always been a tiny missing piece;

The solid proof!

All the best
Jukka

[Graham]

The more I think about MJK and the supposed Welsh industrial disaster that she claimed widowed her, the more I think it's a green mare's nest.

If she was Irish, then maybe she was gifted with all of the story-telling talent of that race and built a 'legend' for herself.

If she was Welsh - and there is at least one witness who claimed that she spoke fluent Welsh - then maybe that does in part support her claim.

I really do think that the 'legend' she constructed was intended to provoke sympathy, and what better than a good old fatal industrial accident?

In the A-Z somewhere is an entry by an investigator who claims that the woman found at 13 Millers Court originated in Cardiff and that she had a daughter, and that that daughter ultimately moved to Bristol. I'm buggered if I can find that entry, but it's there somewhere!

I rather think that the Millers Court woman adopted the name 'Kelly' as a 'nom de rien' because it was so common in the East End at the time, or she picked it up because Joe Barnett was also known as 'Kelly' when it suited him.

Odd it is that the one C5 victim who has attracted the most discussion is the one we know least about.

By the way, Blaenavon was the first mass-production ironworks anywhere that utilised concentrated steam-power to drive its (three) blast furnaces. In the late 18th century it was the world's largest producer of iron ingot.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

There are none in 1881, however Cwmafon is only 15 miles away from Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, where a "cluster" of plausible Kellys were found by Chris Scott in 2004. Hope you don't mind, Chris - indeed, I rather hope this gives you food for thought!

I was interested to read this article in today's Guardian. It shows how important the iron and coal industries were in the Blaenavon area, particularly during the Victorian Era and the Industrial Revolution - so much so, that it recently received "World Heritage Site" status.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sam!

The next question cannot be avoided;

Any Kellies in Cwmafon at about 1879?!

There are none in 1881, however Cwmafon is only 15 miles away from Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, where a "cluster" of plausible Kellys were found by Chris Scott in 2004:

John Kelly aged 22, born Limerick. A general labourer but his 2 fellow lodgers are "cokers" so it is likely his work related to the Ironworks.
James Kelly aged 23 born Cork, Ireland. A boarder listed as a Bessemer Labourer (Steel)
Matthew Kelly aged 35 born Waterford, Ireland. Head of household list as a Furnace labourer (Iron)
William Kelly aged 25 born Ireland. Boarder listed as an Iron labourer
John Kelly aged 30 born Ireland. Lodger listed as a Rail straightener (Iron Works)
James Kelly aged 26 born Ireland. Lodger listed as a Coke filer (Iron Works)
Patrick Kelly aged 40 born Ireland. Boarder listed as an Iron worker

Hope you don't mind, Chris - indeed, I rather hope this gives you food for thought!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sam!

The next question cannot be avoided;

Any Kellies in Cwmafon at about 1879?!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

Lateral thinking alert!

I just put a "Kelly's origins" post over on Howard's site, and thought I'd put the relevant bits here:

There are two places in South Wales, called "Cwmafan" and "Cwmafon" (colloquially pronounced "K'marv'un"), both of which might have been confused as "Caernarfon/Carmarthen" by Joe Barnett. Both Cwmafan and Cwmafon had - and to an extent, still have - strong connections with the iron, steel and coal industries.

Cwmafan is a village outside Port Talbot, Glamorgan - I was at school with a number of 4th-generation Irish children from there or thereabouts - and there were, and are, a number of important iron and steel businesses in the area. One or two coal-mines, too, but not on an epic scale.

Cwmafon is near Blaenafon in Gwent, not far from either Newport or Cardiff. Interestingly, a fatal accident at Cwmafon pit in June 1879 claimed the lives of 6 coal-miners. I've not been able to find out their names, but it's a fair bet there was at least one "Davies/Davis" amongst them!

[Chris Scott]

Hi Jon G
You wrote:
Surely, our most likely way of tracing Kelly, is through the mining explosion in Wales that "killed her husband Davis" ?

As with Stride,and her husband going down with the boat on the Thames story, the incident could be true, and may provide a foothold on Kelly`s past ?

Unfortunately, the Stride story of the Princess Alice does not bear scrutiny and was almost certainly an invention.

With regard to the version of Kelly's life that has come down to us via the accounts of Barnett et al., the problem is one of the degree of invention. I think we can say with some certainty that the name Mary Jane Kelly was an invented or assumed name, as the amount of alleged detail in the account and the number of researchers who have sought her out make the complete lack of any verifiable trace an impossibility.
An example of this is her alleged marriage. Barnett was insistent on certain points which would, if true, make this event relatively easy to trace:
1) Kelly was her maiden name
2) She married at the age of 16
3) She married a man named Davis/Davies (later stated as Davies)
4) She was legally married
There is no traceable record that fulfils all these criteria.
The logical reasons for this are that one, some or all of the above alleged facts are invention. If the whole story is invented then, from a researcher's point of view it leads, of course, nowhere.
Other permutations are possible.
For example, the woman's real name may not have been Mary Jane Kelly, but all the other facts relating to the marriage may be true.
Or, if Kelly was lying or mistaken about her age, then the whole assumed chronology may be at fault. If it assumed that Kelly was born circe 1863, then she would have been married about 1879 and widowed in 1881 or 1882 (the surviving account says she was married two or three years). After being widowed she allegedly moved to Cardiff and finaly moved to London some time about 1884.
Of course, if Kelly was not 25 years of age or thereabouts at the time of her death, then the above chronology is, from a researcher's point of view, useless.
Will we ever find Kelly's identity definitively? In my opinion, in the absence of further (currently unknown) evidence, the answer would have to be "no."
Whether such evidence will appear in the course of time, is, of course, an unanswerable question.
regards
Chris Scott