Mary Kellys cadaver would not be out of place....

[Sam Flynn]

The issue I have with that kind of supposition Sam is that there are infinitely more possibilities than just a madman here...

Oh, I don't like the "madman" cop-out either, Mike. It's just that, in this case, it's not a cop-out at all. Few, if any, ripper-type murderers - either before 1888 or since - have had any connection with what might loosely be called "the anatomical trades".

Quite possibly. Or "none of the above", if the killer were sufficiently twisted - which he undoubtedly was.

The issue I have with that kind of supposition Sam is that there are infinitely more possibilities than just a madman here....and the madman who cuts women open in public is such a minority of the population position to take.

If there were men that did what was done to Mary Jane to human cadavers or animals or something that required or ensured some anatomical savvy.....why look for a motivation by the killer that necessitates his being insane to have done what is done in that room?

The whole point of this thread was....that one doesnt have to imagine that only a madman could create that mess and be in that kind of environment. There were other men that could and did do just that nearly everyday.

All the best Gareth

[j.r-ahde]

Hello perrymason!

I obviously feel med students would be steeled to this kind of thing.....would a fish gutter? Or a slaughterman? Or a Butcher?

Maybe a med student, fish gutter, slaughterman or a butcher, that is frustrated and bored with his studies/occupation?!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

Does that indicate the killer had some comfort with seeing internal organs and tissues and blood?

I obviously feel med students would be steeled to this kind of thing.....would a fish gutter? Or a slaughterman? Or a Butcher?

Quite possibly. Or "none of the above", if the killer were sufficiently twisted - which he undoubtedly was.

We'd also have to factor in the drying effects from the blazing fire coming from one end of the room. Would the fully exposed viscera on the table dry out faster than the viscera nestles in wet bedclothing.

I guess one factor that would impact that is whether the pile was made around 3 or 4am or after 9am.

There is a formulaic answer for that available by her body stiffness at 1:30pm and the undigested food.

Again though.....the overall scene is essentially a gore fest, there is bone protruding, organ and viscera piled here and there, her face is ruined and horrifying....there must have been blood soaked through that bed....the scene was something that not everyone could stomach, let alone create.

Does that indicate the killer had some comfort with seeing internal organs and tissues and blood?

I obviously feel med students would be steeled to this kind of thing.....would a fish gutter? Or a slaughterman? Or a Butcher?

Best regards

[Magpie]

We'd also have to factor in the drying effects from the blazing fire coming from one end of the room. Would the fully exposed viscera on the table dry out faster than the viscera nestles in wet bedclothing.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sam!

In fact, I thought about the following thing;

Has any of our members with medical expertise ever presented a thorough analysis about the dry-out of MJK's organs?!

My personal impression is, that various organs have a different timeline with drying-out!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

Good point, Mags. The drying-out of various organs/tissues - we're talking several hours here, remember - might well have affected their configuration somewhat. I've previously speculated that torsion in the tissues of the neck might have caused the head to loll over, and that remains a possibility as far as I'm concerned. The "crabbing" of the fingers of the left hand could certainly have been caused by sinews/muscles contracting due to various post-mortem processes acting upon them.

[Magpie]

Has anyone taken into account that a piled mass of viscera may have also moved/shifts as the tissue started to loss moisture? Not signficantly, you understand but enough to give an unordered pile of goop the appearance of a more deliberate placement?

[Sam Flynn]

Im sure thats a possibility Sam, but we have other organs set aside in unusual places

...but far, far more of them were just dumped, though, in rather practical places (over the side, on the table). And - let's not forget - one of her breasts was dumped near the bottom of the bed. If he wanted to be "symbolic", why not shove both breasts under the head?

The likes of Stephen Knight and Dan Brown have a lot to answer for.

Or the head lolled over on top of them, Mike. We can't rule that out.

Im sure thats a possibility Sam, but we have other organs set aside in unusual places although not another one that required moving any part of the deceased to place it there. We also have a left arm where it could not have been during the dissection, so it therefore must have been moved after by the killer. The innards on the table to me is only relevant when determining his probable dominant hand and body position while placing them there, they needed to go somewhere... and that seems as sensible as over the shoulders in the street murders.

I cannot get over how similar Marys corpse looks to female cadavers being surgically de-engineered by young men in operating theatres, with promising medical careers ahead of them. There is a ghoulish feeling one gets about that aspect of medical training, it seems many of the men themselves dealt with that with humour.

Could there be irony in his choice of organ placement, symbolically? I dont have an opinion on this...just asking.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

What I find fascinating about that crime scene isnt the gore and entrails placed here and there, its that he lifted her head to place some organs there.

Or the head lolled over on top of them, Mike. We can't rule that out.

And while I certainly can't speak for all dissection rooms, thanks to a medical student friend I was once "privileged" to spend some time in a dissection room and there was no great order to the body parts on each table; just piled neatly but "wherever."


Don.

Hi Don,

I think that comment supports the thread premise. What I find fascinating about that crime scene isnt the gore and entrails placed here and there, its that he lifted her head to place some organs there.

Almost everything that is done to Mary Kelly we might see in photographs of dissection rooms of the period....I started this thread after I saw such an image...but the actions like pacing a uterus and a breast under her head seem......... immature to me. Unlike someone who had been taught to respect the remains of the people they dissect in class. More like someone personally interacting with the deceased.

Thats the impression I get anyway.

Cheers Don

[Supe]

Howard,

It might have been a spur of the moment decision he reached without giving it too much thought.... that those organs he had in his mitts need to go "somewhere" and that "somewhere" was right next to him...the table.

Reading your post I was reminded of the onerous task of cleaning a basment or just a small room (if it's my bedroom). A point is always reached when the place looks messier than when you started, but that is because things seem to get piled "wherever." In practice, this stage actually means you are close to finishing, but the operative word is "wherever"--no real method to it, just putting things where there is room at the moment.

And while I certainly can't speak for all dissection rooms, thanks to a medical student friend I was once "privileged" to spend some time in a dissection room and there was no great order to the body parts on each table; just piled neatly but "wherever."

And I'll add that Jean gave a consummate wiseguy like me the ultimate straight line when she asked if I could "give her a hand." And yes, I did.

Don.

[Tenth Bell]

Sam...

Ahhhh... Touché, Sam. That was nicely positioned ; )