Jack had to slip up

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

three out of 4 that had abdominal cuts also had their uterus extracted. 75% is hardly insignificant Sam.

It actually can't really be said to be significant, in a sample as small as the one we're talking about here. I'm quite happy to accept that it may have been significant, but I feel that the significance might be down to the simple fact that there were very few organs available in the lower abdomen which Jack could - literally - lay his hands on.

Not that this diminishes any hint of sexual sadism on Jack's part - far from it. It's not even as if most sexual sadists practise abdominal mutilation, more often "contenting" themselves with bullying or beating up their wives/girlfriends. Jack was, after all, killing and cutting open a woman's body, which in itself may be seen as a powerful symbol of misogyny, without his going to the extent of removing organs as well.

To this extent, the removal of organs might have been the product of a crazy idea that seized the Ripper on the spur of the moment. Perhaps, dare I suggest, the thought only occurred to him due to the better lighting conditions that prevailed in Hanbury Street as compared to Buck's Row.

Perhaps you're right in saying he was actually safer killing indoors, but that wouldn't take into account that in Millers Court, it is the only time he has just one way out. Bucks Row was open ended, someone comes one direction he runs the other...Hanbury St was a backyard with fences that could be hopped in 3 directions... In Mitre Square there were 3 access points

And there you've hit the nail on the head. If we flip the argument around, it's apparent that whilst there were multiple escape-routes at his disposal in those outdoor venues, they also served as multiple entry-points from which potential witnesses or captors could approach.

For him to be seen in #13 means he literally could have been trapped in that room with no escape available anywhere.

We know that he took risks. I guess the risk of someone wandering in at 3 or 4 in the morning to that secluded room was one he was prepared to tolerate. It was certainly much safer there than at "getting-up-time" in Hanbury Street, with a dozen or so windows gazing down onto his impromptu operating theatre - added to which was the additional issue of someone passing within a few feet on his way to the outside privy, with naught but a flimsy fence in between.

It seems keeping the Canonical Group intact takes lots of duct tape and belief suspension.

I'm not at all precious about the Canonical Five, Mike - and, if anything requires a suspension of belief, it is the notion that someone else was around with the ability to inflict such indignities upon the corpse of Mary Kelly, and to do so in such a way that rendered nearly every previous Ripper murder seem as unremarkable as a poke in the eye.

[paul emmett]

So you've noticed that too Paul, that the point gets countered regardless of its value

Hi, Michael, Sam.
That isn't my point. Where Sam and I frequently disagree is when it seems to me that he demands that I fit everything into one theory. How can Eddowes's kidney, for example, fit in with JTR's focus on feminine/birthing parts? Maybe it can and maybe it can't. But if it can't, that doesn't mean that JTR didn't have A focus on feminine/birthing parts.

Have good days.

Hi all,

So you've noticed that too Paul, that the point gets countered regardless of its value. Perhaps Sam has taken on the role of naysayer to challenge us....that would be more acceptable to me than close minded, anyway....

Since 3 of the 5 did have their uterus removed from their bodies, and one of the 4 had no abdominal cuts, so its three out of 4 that had abdominal cuts also had their uterus extracted. 75% is hardly insignificant Sam.

Perhaps you're right in saying he was actually safer killing indoors, but that wouldn't take into account that in Millers Court, it is the only time he has just one way out. Bucks Row was open ended, someone comes one direction he runs the other...Hanbury St was a backyard with fences that could be hopped in 3 directions. We'll skip Dutfields, because for one, it not likely she was killed by The Ripper, and secondly, his has two ways out, through the club, or over the fence near Wess's office. In Mitre Square there were 3 access points, did he know 2 were used by patrolmen? Maybe, but he still had the carriageway access to flee via.

For him to be seen in #13 means he literally could have been trapped in that room with no escape available anywhere.

Sam I think you must believe the man was a fool by some of the points you raise. I don't. I think he was intelligent. I think he liked freedom, and I think he had no intention of ever painting himself into a room in a courtyard with one exit. And if he didnt kill Mary Kelly...then you have no basis to suggest he would choose such a venue.

It seems keeping the Canonical Group intact takes lots of duct tape and belief suspension.

My best regards.

[paul emmett]

He cut out Mary's uterus - as well as her kidneys, bladder and almost everything else. Besides, there was no continuity with taking the uterus anyway, unless we wish to exclude Polly Nichols.

Hello, Sam.

It's always all or nothing for you--take every uterus, or he is not interested in them. For me, taking two and giving MKJ's a "privledged" spot under her head with a breast and them mysterious kidneys says something about his focus. As far as Polly, there is a good chance that he was interrupted--unfinnished.

Wasn't there an old thread that showed FOLDED clothes was one of those Ripper legends? In fact, they were just on the chair?

[NOV9]

Mary did fight the killer

When Mary was ready for bed, she folded her cloths, and put them on the chair, because that was all she had and did not want to get them dirty, she did not have a customer at that time. She went to sleep. The killer gained entrance to her room, she was sleeping off the drunken stupor that she was in, and may not have heard the killer enter the room.

The killer would want Mary to be awake to see him just as he would do the kill, something he would enjoy to see the terror in her eyes. He left the eyes looking at him as he left the room. Mary’s fist was clenched for fight or flight, a natural reaction.

The killer had already planed this kill a long time ago and came prepared, with water to wash off the blood, and another set of cloths so as not to arouse suspicion when he left. After getting blood all over his cloths he would burn them in the fire causing a real hot spot to melt the kettle spout. He lived in the neighborhood so he blended in real well when he left. He loved her and hated her.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

But he never abandoned the uterus, even when taking on a new objective. There is continuity in the taking of a uterus in particular that should'nt be downplayed when assessing Marys inclusion, I feel.

He cut out Mary's uterus - as well as her kidneys, bladder and almost everything else. Besides, there was no continuity with taking the uterus anyway, unless we wish to exclude Polly Nichols.

The indoor/outdoor issue, as it affected his ability to do anything he liked is a moot point..he did exactly what he wanted to outside

Eviscerating someone in the open air has its constraints, therefore to assume that he "did exactly as he wanted to" is as moot as moot gets. Even more moot is this...

The indoor venue did nothing to give him any advantage when mutilating

...in fact, it's more than moot, I'm afraid. Of course an indoor kill in a private dwelling gave him greater scope and advantages than killing outside in a public place.

What is the focus when it comes to Mary Kelly?

Slashing a woman and cutting or pulling her insides out, like the rest.

Where is his "out" if discovered? At best..unclear.

As unclear as his "outs" in respect of Mitre Square and Hanbury Street, where he stood a greater chance of being discovered in the first place.

Sam,

But he never abandoned the uterus, even when taking on a new objective. There is continuity in the taking of a uterus in particular that should'nt be downplayed when assessing Marys inclusion, I feel.

The indoor/outdoor issue, as it affected his ability to do anything he liked is a moot point..he did exactly what he wanted to outside, as he is never caught in the act, or over the deceased...in Kates case that is remarkable, and very focussed. The indoor venue did nothing to give him any advantage when mutilating. And it disadvantaged him greatly, for the first time he would not be able to leave via some other exit if approached by someone while in the room killing...at Hanbury he could have jumped the fence, Bucks row was open ended, Mitre Square had 3 entrances, and Dutfields Yard at least 2...one the side door to the club.

What is the focus when it comes to Mary Kelly? Where is his "out" if discovered? At best..unclear.

My best Sam...and nite....its a Jerk Chicken and Red Stripe night...

[Sam Flynn]

Is an organ just an organ..any one will do for him? Or does the fact that the first two with organs taken both had their uterus excised and taken matter?

Well, as I've said Mike, short of making off with a great octopus of intestines dangling out of his pocket, there was very little choice available to him in an alfresco evisceration.

I believe before adding Mary Kelly, a case could be made for a killers goal that involved obtaining a female organ, obtained from where you feel he has the greatest access in outdoor venues..the pelvis and abdomen. See how the outdoor venue might be eminently suitable if his needs were as such?

Not really, Mike. In fact, an indoor venue would have made his life simpler, if merely removing the uterus was his goal. The truth of the matter is that most of the "easy targets" had no choice but to service their clients on the streets.

As to the "femininity" of the organs he took, all I can say is that there is nothing peculiarly "female" about the kidney, except inasmuch as it regularly takes the piss out of men As it is, the fact that he removed Eddowes' kidney shows, beyond all reasonable doubt, that what he did was to remove whatever organs he could feasibly lay his hands on. If he were fixated on the uterus, he'd have been satisfied simply with that, but no - he evidently found another trophy, and was quite happy to take that as well.

I hear ya Sam, and I agree your letters assignations are fair, but as you said, to what degree, is something else.

Is an organ just an organ..any one will do for him? Or does the fact that the first two with organs taken both had their uterus excised and taken matter?

I believe before adding Mary Kelly, a case could be made for a killers goal that involved obtaining a female organ, obtained from where you feel he has the greatest access in outdoor venues..the pelvis and abdomen. See how the outdoor venue might be eminently suitable if his needs were as such?

My best regards Sir Sam.

[Arsenic Addicted Lipski]

Hi,

I believe you are referring to geographic profiling.
The Buffer zone is his comfort zone. And not too close to his home,
By foot approx. 1/2-mile radius would be safe for him.

Yeah... thanks for reply. Then do you believe the Ripper lived in a 1/2-mile radius of Mary Ann Nichols?

[Arsenic Addicted Lipski]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something major. We know this how?

That is just one of my favorite theories for a suspect. Jewish Immigrant... since they are so prevailent in the area. But I do not rule out anyone of any ethnic background. I guess I'm off point with "Mary Jane Kelly > Jack had to slip up" but I'm a crappy newbie lol... again.

[NOV9]

Ok Sam...and Ill settle for "deliberate", so you dont have to regret a thing.

cd, how about I modify my position to be doubtful that Jack committed this murder, I admire the way you acknowledge that there are in fact some definite and significant MO changes, while maintaining your belief... I find that often when people take a position, they are prone to defending accusations that fly in the face of that ideal..even when they make sense. Bravo.

Nov 9th...I think first off, desensitize a bit...I meant no disrespect, but the waves can get big out here, so save it for them..

My point was this.....the vast majority of the time Mary Kellys killer spent in that room was making excisions, and placing things. There is only "rage" present in her facial wounds, and perhaps the knife used before the throat cut, but after that...he settles down. Ill bet he slashed her face right after slitting her, or while in the process of cutting her throat. Then its perhaps 25 minutes...maybe more, not likely less, of cutting.

My initial point was.....Jack the Ripper kills-cuts and takes the organs he cuts out. He doesnt take classes in anatomy.

Polly-subdue/cut throat/cut abdomen/flee....Annie-subdue/cut throat/cut abdomen/take organs including uterus/flee...Kate-subdue/cut throat/cut face/cut abdomen/take organs including uterus/flee...Mary-attack/cut prior to kill wound/cut throat/cut face apart/cut abdomen/cut flesh off right thigh/partially from left thigh/empty abdomen of organs/abandon uterus/place organs around corpse/take heart/lock door/flee

My best regards all.

Perrymason,

My apology for the outburst lets be friends OK.

"Your initial point was.....Jack the Ripper kills-cuts and takes the organs he cuts out. He doesnt take classes in anatomy."

Now what if Mary's killer was just exploring, because he did not know what organs were what, when he chopped up Mary, so he just left them around for shock effect and took the heart because he knew what that was.

Jack was not a doctor so taking the heart was a safe take, so as not to look like he did not know what he was doing, he mutilated her, so that Joe could only identify the ear and the eyes. Real nice of him hey.

And as for the Ripper he did not leave body parts laying all around, he was quit neat about it. And he could have left a real mess if he wanted to.

I do not think that Jack was into shock.

What I mean is that Mary's killer read the papers about liver and uterus being taken and he did not have a clue what they were. All he wanted to do was kill Mary, and blame poor old Jack.

Again this is only my opinion because, I was not there, and I’m innocent.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

My initial point was.....Jack the Ripper kills-cuts and takes the organs he cuts out...

...apart from Eddowes' ear, nose and descending colon. We might add to that the flaps of flesh cut from Annie Chapman's abdomen, as the skin is an organ too, but I won't labour the point.

It's all a matter of degree, and this...

Annie-subdue/cut throat/cut abdomen/take organs including uterus/flee...Kate-subdue/cut throat/cut face/cut abdomen/take organs including uterus/flee...Mary-attack/cut prior to kill wound/cut throat/cut face apart/cut abdomen/cut flesh off right thigh/partially from left thigh/empty abdomen of organs/abandon uterus/place organs around corpse/take heart/lock door/flee

...can be simplified thus, with "added Polly" for good measure:

Polly (A, B)
Annie (A, B, C)
Kate (A, B, C, D, E, F)
Mary (A, B, C, D, E, F)

...where

Cut throat = "A"; Evisceration = "B"; Organ(s) removed = "C"; Facial mutilation = "D"; Excised organs found near body = "E"; Thighs mutilated = "F".

The detail isn't materially relevant (bear with me!), in the specific sense that each victim was pretty much subdued before the mutilation commenced, getting at the abdominal organs required the abdomen to be cut open, abandonment of organ "X" was common to all the murders, as was fleeing the scene.

PS: What "locked door"?

Ok Sam...and Ill settle for "deliberate", so you dont have to regret a thing.

cd, how about I modify my position to be doubtful that Jack committed this murder, I admire the way you acknowledge that there are in fact some definite and significant MO changes, while maintaining your belief... I find that often when people take a position, they are prone to defending accusations that fly in the face of that ideal..even when they make sense. Bravo.

Nov 9th...I think first off, desensitize a bit...I meant no disrespect, but the waves can get big out here, so save it for them..

My point was this.....the vast majority of the time Mary Kellys killer spent in that room was making excisions, and placing things. There is only "rage" present in her facial wounds, and perhaps the knife used before the throat cut, but after that...he settles down. Ill bet he slashed her face right after slitting her, or while in the process of cutting her throat. Then its perhaps 25 minutes...maybe more, not likely less, of cutting.

My initial point was.....Jack the Ripper kills-cuts and takes the organs he cuts out. He doesnt take classes in anatomy.

Polly-subdue/cut throat/cut abdomen/flee....Annie-subdue/cut throat/cut abdomen/take organs including uterus/flee...Kate-subdue/cut throat/cut face/cut abdomen/take organs including uterus/flee...Mary-attack/cut prior to kill wound/cut throat/cut face apart/cut abdomen/cut flesh off right thigh/partially from left thigh/empty abdomen of organs/abandon uterus/place organs around corpse/take heart/lock door/flee

My best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Ill address the points inside the quote

Mike - I wish you wouldn't do that. Because the quotes aren't carried over when one presses the "quote" button, anyone who has to respond to your points has to laboriously cut and paste them. Given that you often make many, many points it makes a bad situation worse.

</friendly advice>

I'll limit myself to one quotation from your last post:

Dont we have a medical opinion that refers to Kates cuts as "playful"...

We don't have medical opinion, but I know that I referred to them as "almost playful" in my article "By Accident or Design". Sometimes I regret my choice of words