Jack had to slip up

[Sam Flynn]

But you know what? We can't rule anyone out based on the small amount of evidence we have.

Oh, but we can Chava! Maybe not McCarthy as such, but there are plenty of others, and it's perfectly legitimate to say "I don't think so-and-so did it..." as long as the reasoning makes sense and the argument sticks to the facts objectively wherever possible

[Chava]

Hi. Why then didn't he talk about people or more spefically men he had seen exiting Miller's Ct? I don't think he killed Mary but he must have known what she was up to.

See now, that is something I'd like to ask him!

By the way why don't you think he killed her? I like him for it, but I'm not gonna ram him down people's throats. However all the time on the boards we say 'I don't think (so-and-so) did it...' But you know what? We can't rule anyone out based on the small amount of evidence we have. it's entirely possible that McCarthy didn't kill her, and had a cast-iron alibi for the rest of the evening. But unless we know that for sure, he's in the frame along with everyone else mentioned in this case!

(Sorry, detective abberline, I wasn't going off on you specifically!)

[detective abberline]

[QUOTE=Chava;1705]Detective Abberline, McCarthy's store was certainly open late into the night. I'll check, but I believe an inquest/police witness puts him there at around 1.00 am.

Hi. Why then didn't he talk about people or more spefically men he had seen exiting Miller's Ct? I don't think he killed Mary but he must have known what she was up to.

Cheers

[anna]

Actually Citizen X, it may have meant he couldn't leave that way either, and the strange sound they heard was Jack tugging hard out of panic to open the door to leave-Mary knew the way to open and close it correctly. Also would mean Julia wouldn't have known about the window trick, which would have been extremely unlikely.Like Cox, she doesn't mention it. What suprises me, is that the fight they had and the window smashing must have drawn attention to the fact that the room was in some ways "open to all"- to put their hands through and have a nice ward room to use without having to find the pennies for a bed, and to do business in. Yet nobody mentions her having to constantly throw people out of there.

[anna]

Citizen X, Sounds like Julia was a bit worried about getting too involved, look what she says, hear a sound about SOME door, not the way the DECEASED used to shut it.I wonder how many other people, because of circumstance didn't want to say what they knew.Julia may have wanted to say more being Kelly's friend,but was hesitating, maybe worried about her own life?

[CitizenX]

Re the door banging. I grew up in a house with a spring lock. If you put the sneck up to prevent it engaging, and you shut the door, it always banged a bit. When you close the door with the sneck down, the spring engages so you have to give it a bit of a push to close it. We always--always!--forgot this when we had the sneck up, so the door always banged because we were using more force than necessary to close it.

That having been said, unless Kelly's door was very well-made. And I doubt that was the case. If the sneck was up, the door probably didn't look very closed. Those old doors tended to warp easily, so wouldn't look cosily locked.

Julia Venturney deposed "I went to bed on Thursday night in Miller's-court about eight p.m. I did not sleep. Perhaps I dozed a bit. I heard a strange sound with some door, which was not like the way in which the deceased used to shut the door."

Did Mary have to kick the door open to gain entry to the room due to it sticking or whatever reason? If this is the case it would make it less likely that the killer gained entry by stealth and suprised her...


Kevin

[paul emmett]

Hello Sam.
but it comes down again to 'Who we believe, and who we dont'.
What a mystery these murders are.....
Regards Richard.

Hi, Richard.

While I can see Joe as a suspect big time, I'm not much of a Harrison fan. He puts trust in the bloody sink story and the pregnancy myth, and he's not much for documentation as I recall. But as you say, it's who ya believe. Are you for JB for JTR or just for MJK?

Regarding the bloody sink, I do think it's important that however Smith comes to that story, even if it's 100% fabrication, he still thinks of a sink of Dorsett st.--not say on Christian st.--which does take us to JB and MJK in some strange way.

[paul emmett]

If so, then the killer was Barnett - or he was covering up for the killer - and his story of the missing key would have been a lie. The problem with this is that, if the "window trick" were merely Barnett's lying to deflect suspicion, then surely Kelly's friends would have contradicted him at the inquest. One thinks especially Maria Harvey, who lodged in that room in the days leading up to the murder, and must surely have known how the door opened. The fact that nobody contradicted Barnett's story is a reasonably strong indicator that he was telling the truth, and the fact that Abberline had no qualms in accepting that the "window trick" was performed "quite easily" adds further weight to that conclusion.

Hi, Sam. Wisconsin won!

I wasn't going to go categorically for Barnett, but you make a good point here. I don't think I feel that the window trick didn't exist. But I would like to note that Harvey would be refuting Abberline, not Barnett at the inquest, cuz it was Abberline stating Barnett's window story. Also according to Evans and Skinner, Abberline went last, and the last thing he said was about the window(and pipe). Not the place for rebuttal. Wasn't there a thread a while back that made a model of Kelly's room to see whether it was simple or not to get in? The results were, as usual mixed, right?

So even though I think the trick was possible, I also feel there are problems here. But still, both the window trick AND the key could exist: the door could have been locked with a key and as you have shown me, then it couldn't be unlocked through the window.

I'M sorry. As I was putting this up 3 posts came. I didn't mean to take you off doors--which I know nothing about and love hearing what you have to say.

[Chava]

Re the door banging. I grew up in a house with a spring lock. If you put the sneck up to prevent it engaging, and you shut the door, it always banged a bit. When you close the door with the sneck down, the spring engages so you have to give it a bit of a push to close it. We always--always!--forgot this when we had the sneck up, so the door always banged because we were using more force than necessary to close it.

That having been said, unless Kelly's door was very well-made. And I doubt that was the case. If the sneck was up, the door probably didn't look very closed. Those old doors tended to warp easily, so wouldn't look cosily locked.

[mercurior]

Its a pity we can't find an industrial archeologist with some knowledge of locks, you could check out the patents for locks. but that wouldn't count for the knock off ones.

Determining the type of lock, may be some of the way of working out where the key went. If it was a simple lock, then the window could have been the main way of opening the door. If the keys were hard to come by, or they would be charged for a new key, then you could have a clue as to when the key vanished or at least an implication to when they vanished.

I dont know what has been said or hasnt, but it would be interesting from an archeological point to check a list of the possibilities, and narrow it down like that. If the same kind of key opened more than one door, that would also be a interesting idea. But as i said i am not sure whats been said i may be off base.. but if the key was taken by jack even if it wasnt its a key (pun not intended) peice.

[anna]

Hi all,just read the conclusion of this thread,which had moved on a bit since I last read it.Then a thought occurred to me,regarding Kelly banging the door.We are of course talking about Autumn - October/November. Our wooden door always "sticks"(expands) due to the cold and damp of the season. If you try to shut it, it sticks when it's half closed and you have to stand and tug it open again and start all over again by banging it closed quickly.Which may be a possibility for what is going on with Kelly. Cox probably wouldn't associate an everyday occurrance as having any importance with a murder.Which if correct, would pose the thought that Jack didn't leave by the door,as people hear footsteps walking away,nobody mentions hearing the door bang shut.That also poses the thought that maybe the door was "stuck" and the police tried to push it (like we try to sometimes) and thought it was locked instead of expanded so pickaxed it in. Any thoughts?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Sam.
I dont know if you have read Paul harrisons publication , which along with Paley points the finger at JB, in Pauls book he alleged that he met a relative of the Jb of millers court in a pub, the contact produced cut outs from several original newspaper cuttings and said Joseph Barnett was the owner.
That is intresting as the cuttings ranged from Tabram - Mckenzie, and Harrison quite corrected said, How could Jb know that Tabram would be the start of a series, unless we was responsible.
He also stated his contact said his relative stated 'He[ JB] always felt sorry for Marys killer, for he could never come forward for fear of being topped.
Question .
Was this Barnetts guilty concious talking, or did he have a insight to her killer but knew he was not resposible for the others.
Of Course we only have the word of the author that such a meeting took place, but it comes down again to 'Who we believe, and who we dont'.
What a mystery these murders are.....
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Paul,
There are many candidates for Mjks murder, Barnett, Fleming, Lawrence, a Ex Client, [ that may have visited her shortly before] not to mention the porter Maxwell [ alleged] saw around 845am on the morning of the 9th.
I am not privilged to information like anyone on this site, however to answer the questions . why did her killer lock the door with a key? I would say a 'Schoolboy error' force of habit..
And did Mjk suspect JB of bad intentions i would say Not, i would suspect she considered him a nice guy, not worthy of her morals, and she had a soft spot for him but hated his preaching about her lifestyle.
I would say that Mjk was the kind of girl you could easily fall for , but she wouldnt make it easy for you with her morals.
We are discussing old history on this site, and each of us have to decifer comtempary evidence, aline with Modern deduction. thats what keeps us typing.
Regards Richard,

[Sam Flynn]

IF the door was key locked, THEN I'm going with Kelly knew her killer.

If so, then the killer was Barnett - or he was covering up for the killer - and his story of the missing key would have been a lie. The problem with this is that, if the "window trick" were merely Barnett's lying to deflect suspicion, then surely Kelly's friends would have contradicted him at the inquest. One thinks especially Maria Harvey, who lodged in that room in the days leading up to the murder, and must surely have known how the door opened. The fact that nobody contradicted Barnett's story is a reasonably strong indicator that he was telling the truth, and the fact that Abberline had no qualms in accepting that the "window trick" was performed "quite easily" adds further weight to that conclusion.

[paul emmett]

Hi Paul,
Wasn't Blotchy supposed to have alcohol with him? I always imagine them drinking together for an hour or so. It is very possible that the alcohol was Blotchy's ONLY payment to Mary.

It seems like it would be more fun for them both to drink the alcohol first, then get down to business.

Hi, Brenda.

I've missed talking to you. Yes, they had a quart bucket of beer. People have argued here that that wouldn't have gone far with drinkers. So perhaps they sipped. And clearly they might well have got down to business. BUT, I just can't see MJK singing, "A Violet I Plucked from My Mother's Grave When a Boy" from 11:45 'til 1:00 and beyond, as foreplay. I also know that many people here think that JTR always struck right away, so for them Blotchy can't be Jack. To me it's strange. For example, if Cox had heard Blotchy singing I would think that he was covering up noise, so now I wonder, what could MJK be covering up? I don't know. You, I take it, see Blotchy as a trick and so MJK brings clients home. Do you see Blotchy as involved in the killing in any way?

Hi Richard,

I think your conclusion has to be right. IF the door was key locked, THEN I'm going with Kelly knew her killer. How do you respond to the usual questions? Why would JTR--or whoever--bother to lock the door? If it's JB, did MJK know?

Also, I'd just like to add that I see the date of the (supposed) key loss--"some time ago"-- as prior to the window breaking which I still see as occurring on breakup day.