Jack had to slip up

Hi Folks,

To Paul firstly, you are making my argument for me ...the heart was a slip up, an indicator that perhaps this was a spurned/lost love issue, with the recipient of the bad news being unstable. Had Marys killler taken her uterus or entire pelvic region, we would have an "elevated" Jack most likely. IMHO.

Cd, the removal of Kates kidney was not at the expense of at least 3/4 of her uterus as well, it was both. The issue here being continuity in the focus on the pelvic and abdominal region of a woman...a heart has no gender.I never said he wouldnt do more after Kates injuries, new things, I just think repeating every prior act to some degree, then omitting to take the most female organs, is unJacklike.

Nov 9th...if you imagine this killer sitting in near darkness in a small room flailing away, youre incorrect, ..because he piece by piece extracts or removes and then places things about her corpse. Her face is anger related, I agree...Unlike Kates wounds which were spiteful and serious, but hardly virtually erasing her identity...had Kelly been just a little curious why the woman he slept with almost every night was gone for two or three in a row, maybe she would have been id'd quicker...but Mary only exhibits some initial rage, in the attack, and her face..

BlackKat, I dont know where it went, but I do know it wasnt in the room.

Without countering everything, let me just say that if you feel that being a woman wasnt relevant to Jack the Ripper when seeking organs, then a heart makes fine sense. I dont feel it was unimportant, in fact he takes Kates only 3/4 after removing a new objective...why didnt he just take the kidney? But no...he takes even a partial uterus, portions of the womans external vagina from Annie.

Seems clear to me he was intentionally killing women, and taking female related organs primarily. The 2nd and 4th victim both lost uteri. So hows a heart fit into the profile...the mad serial killer vexed by his impotence, or rage at whores or women...Heres the thing.....how can a heart be specifically female?.......how about when it comes from an object of the killers affection, or source of rejection....one who is female.

Now remember we have a lover of hers that will be declared insane in the near future...just like his family genes indicated.

My best regards all.

[paul emmett]

Hi, Fisherman.

We were so near the old portable vs potable joke.

I do not think it's a more the merrier. And I have struggled with the kidney too. Does it relate to Chapman's bladder? We all have our kinks.

Indeed, Chapman's bladder is more problematic for me. With Chapman, JTR seemed to take the birth parts: vagina, navel, womb. Oh, and bladder.

For the kidney, there it is with MJK as the odd man out. Foetus/infant under her head with uterus/breast. Oh, and kidneys.

But I found BlackKat's literature on the Eastern associations of womb and kidney very helpful, because it allowed me to understand the combination of parts that JTR used to prop up Kelly's head. And I'm not going to do the pun in "kidney" that takes us to the same place, but it is to be found on the "Psychoanalytic" thread. Hi, Sam.

[Fisherman]

Hi Sam and Paul!

I´m afraid we are not necessarily talking of a connoiseur here; Chikatilo reportedly chewed on a uterus after having cut it out of a woman. Leaving the yuckier parts about that affair aside for now (you are probably aquainted with them), there is no need to choose portability over cannibalism for the sake of uteri being inedible, I think.

Portability presents nothing but an issue of practicality, and would as such not have been an ultimate goal. If he took the parts along with him, he did so for a reason.
What´s your take on the kidney, anyway? Something to use to focus on the memory of the deed? And if so, in what way would it heighten the sensation derived from the possesion of the uterus? Why and how would two organs be more useful to that end? And if he found that "the more the merrier" did apply - then why leave all them freshly cut out innards in Millers Court, and settle for just the heart? Seems strange, does it not?

If he did not take it for the sake of consuming it, that kidney is an annoyance...

The best, Sam, Paul,
Fisherman

[paul emmett]

If we want to go with rage, that would seem as good a motivating factor as any and probably better than most. But lets not make the mistake of saying that we are certain. We're not.c.d.

Hi c.d. OK--if I can add the coda that we are sure of nothing. With JTR AND life. My best friend loves me, tomorrow is a comin', it will snow in Wisconsin again. I've just seen too many discussions here get lost in "we can't say for sure." Perhaps, but I feel almost as sure about the rage as I do about the snow, and I'm in WI. Show the MJK crime scene to 100 folks, ask them what emotion is being expressed, we know who's gonna win THE FAMILY FEUD. Rage! So let's move on and talk about it--perhaps on a different thread.

Paul

[c.d.]

Hi Paul,

Certainly rage has to be an obvious choice. But what if Jack were some whacked out religious fanatic? Maybe in his mind he was punishing them for their sins. Maybe he thought that might get them into heaven despite their evil ways. Is that far fetched? Sure. But as I stated earlier, we simply don't know. If we want to go with rage, that would seem as good a motivating factor as any and probably better than most. But lets not make the mistake of saying that we are certain. We're not.

c.d.

[paul emmett]

So maybe we should go for the only other simple explanation offered by the combination uteri - kidney - heart? Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

I just read that Sam went for portability. What were you going for? BlackKat posted some interesting articles recently on the Eastern associations between the kidneys and the womb. I think it's telling that even though the killer of MJK took neither the kidney nor the womb, he did leave them together, and together with a breast under Kelly's head.

[paul emmett]

Hi, all.

Nov9, you asked why I thought MJK's killer was a bad copycat. Consider the heart/womb choice that I mentioned. It seems to me that JTR could take the heart and not the womb, for numeruos reasons, symbolic, progression, whatever. Also your average killer could take the heart for many of the same reasons and a ton more. But a copycat killer COULDN'T take the heart: it's NOT copying. In turn, all of the differences in the MJK crime scene which might make us say JTR did not do it, by the very definition of "difference" also weigh in against a copycat killer. They are NOT copying!


c.d., you said above that we couldn't designate rage as Jack's motivating factor. But I would disagree on two fronts. First doesn't it have to be factorS. Such killings must have complicated and overdetermined motivation. That being said, I think rage has to be one of the motives. Call it ritual, political, sexual, what you will, I would say it has to be rage too. For me, JTR butcherings are the embodiment of rage. The interesting question, that has been discussed on recent threads, seems to be, from whence the rage?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fisherman,

So maybe we should go for the only other simple explanation offered by the combination uteri - kidney - heart?

All three organs are comparatively solid and portable. The heart and kidney are also edible. I'd go for portability over cannibalism, on balance.

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:
"I think Marys killer slipped up when he took the heart"

Not so sure about that, Michael. If you are to point out the two innards carrying the largest symbolic meanings of a womans inside, I fail to see which bits and pieces could compete with heart and uterus. Also, both of them carry implications of love-connected issues.

...meaning that I am a lot more troubled by the taking of Eddowes´ kidney, than I am perplexed by Kellys loss of her heart. That kidney deprives us of the obvious explanations and challenges us to start looking in Bible messages and masonic rituals, and it all becomes so much more far-fetched all of a sudden.
So maybe we should go for the only other simple explanation offered by the combination uteri - kidney - heart?

The best, Michael, all,

Fisherman

[NOV9]

Hi Nov 9,

I don't think that we can designate rage or any other emotion as Jack's motivating factor. We simply don't know what drove him. Perhaps it was sexual or even political or some bizarre ritual that he was fulfilling. We simply don't know and never will. All we can do is speculate.

And if we designate Mary's and Kate's face slashing as being personal, how do we decipher ripping out intestines and carving flesh off of a thigh? It seems that we are picking and choosing if we go that route.

c.d.

You are right C.D. who knows. lets forget about it.

[NOV9]

and where did her heart go???

Was it thrown in the fire? - that would be heartburn mah' bad

Like c.d. says Who knows?

we can only speculate.

[Blackkat]

and where did her heart go???

Was it thrown in the fire? - that would be heartburn mah' bad

[c.d.]

Hi Nov 9,

I don't think that we can designate rage or any other emotion as Jack's motivating factor. We simply don't know what drove him. Perhaps it was sexual or even political or some bizarre ritual that he was fulfilling. We simply don't know and never will. All we can do is speculate.

And if we designate Mary's and Kate's face slashing as being personal, how do we decipher ripping out intestines and carving flesh off of a thigh? It seems that we are picking and choosing if we go that route.

c.d.

[NOV9]

Hi all,

Actually Paul if he was a copycat he was an extremely capable one, because he has fooled many thousands by now. Mary had many things performed upon her, many things that were strictly to injure or further maim a corpse...but some acts did have resonance with Ripper acts.

In keeping with the thread title, I think Marys killer slipped up when he took the heart. Whatever role the uterus had played with the Ripper up until that point was dismissed. The uterus being the only organ both Annie and Kate, lost to a greater and lesser degree.. respectively. Perhaps that is most troubling to the believers of a sexual serial predator named Jack, and that he killed Mary Kelly, ... is that point. Why would a killer who symbolically has dealt exclusively with the region from thigh to breastbone of women....taking specifically womens reproductive organs from 2 of the three with organs taken, suddenly fixates on an organ which could symbolize connections,or loss, of Love, Life, ..a persons Soul, but not anything remotely gender specific.

So is Jack now just killing any homo sapien, the fact that they are women meaning less as he continues his mad rage against the unfairness of fistulas, or having a whore for a Mother, or a bitch for a wife.......

Until you start really thinking about what he takes...and I dont mean just assuming he likes trophies,...far to dismissive, since we know that these female reproductive organs were at some point solicited before the rampage from Teaching Hospitals, at least one virtually authenticated the claim,... they were used in East European/Germanic rituals, and I know of one Doctor who implanted uteri into rich people in London during that period to "live forever/gain immortality".....then a change in organs becomes very significant when attributing Mary to the same killer as Kate and Annie.

If Jack the Ripper wanted uteri, then why leave Marys, when its already cut out of her.

My best regards all.

That was well written, now why would he mutilate the face? If you can see the rage, and think of the cuts to mouth and tongue, what was he trying to say with this signature.

This is unsafe thinking but you almost have to be in his mind for this.

[NOV9]

Hi NOV9,

We had that great thread, right before the crash, on MJK: copycat? And, of course, the results were multiple. Some used the many numerous differences in the MJK crime scene to try to prove the killer wasn't JTR. I'm not sure if I agree with that, but I do think that if the killer is a copycat, he's about the world's worst.

but I do think that if the killer is a copycat, he's about the world's worst.

Is it Just because Mary was mutilated, more than the others?

Mary and Eddowe's hit was personal.

Jack was not personal.