Could Mary Jane Read or Write?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Claire!

Don't worry! My wisdom of the Welsh language is limited to some variations of one Welsh sentence I asked from my friend to a short-story a long time ago (since I don't even know the word "thank you" in Welsh, I will say "kiitos" (the Finnish version!) for him!)

All right, now to the subject; I agree with you, that at the time it probably was too hard to reach a medium-education for an Irish-immigrant's working class girl in Wales.

But... since she could hide her backround so damn well, it's quite possible, that she was a self-made-woman in the educational sense!

All the best
Jukka

[claire]

Yeah, thanks, Sam...just before I read your post I was reading about the Welsh Not practice...I think that particular abomination was dying out by the time MJK got to school (if she did), but, yes, a Welsh medium education seems very unlikely...my apologies for an ill-informed suggestion. I should have known better since my daughter went to a Welsh language primary: my knowledge, by contrast, is restricted to road signs! Thanks for your wisdom (once again)

[Sam Flynn]

Then again, of course, it's possible that she learned to read and write in Welsh.

Unlikely, Claire - given that the government had ostensibly deprecated the teaching of Welsh in schools in Wales from 1847 onwards. Although Welsh still flourished as a spoken language in many parts of Wales, its status as a written (and read) medium suffered a huge blow. From the 1850s onwards, written Welsh was largely the preserve of academics and the congregations of non-conformist (Protestant) chapels. Together, these managed to keep the written language alive to the extent whereby Welsh language newspapers still enjoyed a modest circulation in some areas. If an Irish/Catholic immigrant like Kelly had picked up Welsh as a spoken language, it's very unlikely that she'd have been taught to read and write it.

[Fisherman]

Fair enough, Chava! But bear in mind that it was said that Kelly left Ireland for Wales at a very low age, and also do not forget that Kelly is often described as being a pinhole or two above the wretched creatures with whom she shared the squalor of Millers Court. It all seems to point in the opposite direction of your suggestion, as far as I´m concerned!

The best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

Yes, but if Kelly really couldn't read--I'm not saying I know she couldn't--that might tend to corroborate her tale of being born in Ireland. As I understand it, a lot of the more rural areas of Ireland did not have the kind of schools for the 'lower classes' that mainland Britain had after education reform earlier in the century. Just about everyone there could read well enough to read a newspaper by 1888, but my information is that the incidence of illiteracy was higher in Ireland at the time. So that's where I was going with this thread...

[Fisherman]

John Bennett writes:

"I used to have a girlfriend who was university educated (Oxford), was good in her field (education), yet used to like me to read stuff to her (newspaper reports, bits of articles, e-mails, anything). Not for any other reason than she liked being 'read to'.
Maybe we're looking at a similar thing with Mary Kelly?"

...and Don adds:

"Why is it so difficult to accept what was a way of life for almost everyone back then and instead try to come up with reasons why Joe was reading to Mary? Is it really that difficult to realize that everything Joe and Mary did before November 9, 1888, have to be abnormal, unnatural or somehow linked to the murder?"

These, I think, are sound posts - the habit of reading to each other was much more common in the old days, and let´s not forget that there were reasons for it too. One such reason was that a household like Marys and Joes would not offer more than one lamp to read by, and the reading time would have been after work, when it was more often than not too dark to read by daylight. It´s not like today, when anybody who wants to have a read can light a lamp beside the cosy recliner chair and pick up a paper.

All the best,
Fisherman

[claire]

I think you're right on this, Supe...I don't think there is anything that can be inferred from Mary's possibly being read to apart from the fact that she lived in the 1880s.

Then again, of course, it's possible that she learned to read and write in Welsh, and found it a pain to do in English.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chava!

It's amazing, how brilliantly she hid her real past! I personally think, that it shows some wittiness in her character. Maybe having an apartment too.

But the most amazing thing is, that she wasn't recognised anywhere for sure. I mean, she was a tall woman (5'7" or 170,28 centimeters) in the contemporary standards. Almost as tall as the men of the time!

What it comes to the letter she received from Ireland and Joe not mentioning about it, MJK probably read - or tried to read - that one herself and burnt it in the fire-place! Because the letter would have revealed too much about her real backround!

All the best
Jukka

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Graham!

Has anyone considered that she may have had impaired vision and couldn't afford a pair of specs?

Graham

I can quite sincerely say, that in 2004 -while visiting this Casebook website for the very first time(s) - my very, very first conclusion about MJK's behaviour with Joe reading to her was: "she would have needed her glasses!"

And I still find it possible, that she could have been short-sighted to some degree! Since I am far-sighted myself, I personally cannot say anything sure about that, though!

All the best
Jukka

[Chava]

Is it really that difficult to realize that everything Joe and Mary did before November 9, 1888, have to be abnormal, unnatural or somehow linked to the murder?

OK, but I'm not sure what the point is, here. Kelly had a life, and so did all the others. It just seems that she spent quite a bit of it drinking. Everyone asked about her said she was a lovely, lovely woman...except when she was in drink. Or that she liked a drink but wasn't a notorious character. And so on. No doubt she had good times and bad times with Barnett, I don't think anyone is suggesting she didn't. I'm certainly not suggesting that her penchant for liquor in the years before she died linked up with her murder. We don't know much about her beyond what was remarkable, and what was remarkable is what stayed with people and that was what they talked about. It's certainly possible that she sat by the fire and listened to Barnett read to her. However, if that did happen, it's a shame that they didn't have at least one decent and comfortable chair to relax in. There were two chairs in that room, and both of them were of the upright, unforgiving, hard wood variety. I think, if sitting beside the fire was something they enjoyed doing, they would have organized an old armchair or whatever.

That having been said, I never think about Kelly sitting by the fire, when I think of the weeks before the murder. For some reason I always think of her outdoors in the sunshine sitting on one of those chairs outside on the street with all the others. There are loads of photographs showing the women sitting on hard chairs on the pavement while the kids play in the street. The other poor victims didn't even have the ability to do that. You don't get to keep your own chair in a doss-house. But Kelly, at least, had a roof over her head and some kind of a permanent address.

[DVV]

David,

according to Barnett, she used to ask him to read the newspapers. Whether she couldn't read or didn't like to, we cannot say.

It was pointed out in a presentation at the Wolverhampton Conference that this was probably a rare glimpse into the domestic scene at No. 13. Before HD-TV, TV, radio, phonographs and most anything else, famalies or just couples, would sit around the hearth or the stove. The women, whose work is never done, would be busy knitting, mending, whatever and someone else, often the male of the house, would read to everyone. This forms the basis for a scene in Great Expectations and, indeed, one of the letters to the police excerpted in Jack the Ripper: Scotland Yard Investigates is from a woman in the Midlands who got her "clue" to pass on from her husband who was reading to her about Jack in front of the fire of an evening.

It really says nothing either way about Mary's literacy but instead seems a brief vignette of Joe and Mary as a happy couple.

Don.

Thanks Don,
and that's why I've pointed out that we can't infer from Barnett's statement whether MK could read or not.
I know that in the 19th century it was very common to read novels "à haute voix" , in order to entertain and instructyour family and guests...
Good ol'times...?

Amitiés,
David

[Supe]

John and everyone,

Why is it so difficult to accept what was a way of life for almost everyone back then and instead try to come up with reasons why Joe was reading to Mary? Is it really that difficult to realize that everything Joe and Mary did before November 9, 1888, have to be abnormal, unnatural or somehow linked to the murder?

Don.

[John Bennett]

Just a thought,

I used to have a girlfriend who was university educated (Oxford), was good in her field (education), yet used to like me to read stuff to her (newspaper reports, bits of articles, e-mails, anything). Not for any other reason than she liked being 'read to'.

Maybe we're looking at a similar thing with Mary Kelly?

I'm not saying she was Oxbridge or anything, but you get my drift....

[Suzi]

That's why she kept Joe!

I'm sure that whoever we know as MJK was somewhat 'superior' to her peers in and around Spitalfields- whether this came from within herself or from some form of education -we'll never know-mainly because we don't- and more than likely wont ever know- who she was!
The names/history will never convince me totally- unless persuaded (convincingly) otherwise!

I suggest that Mc Carthy's lodger at No 13 was a bright creature who made her way as and when she could-Now the tantalising question as to whether she was a relation or whatever is for another thread but she seemed to 'convince' John Mc C in some way or another-and Joe!

[Graham]

Has anyone considered that she may have had impaired vision and couldn't afford a pair of specs?

Graham