The Welsh connection - contemporary investigations

[lbw_b_druitt]

Western Mail
15 November 1888

THE VICTIM'S CONNECTION WITH SWANSEA
Mrs Jane Williams, landlady of the Unity Inn at Swansea, writes us denying the statement that the woman Kelly who used occasionally to visit her house is identical with the victim of the Whitechapel murder. The name of the former was Abigail, that of the latter Mary Jane. The first named married at Llanelly one Muir, a Scotch mason. Both emigrated to America and are now, or lately were, living in Kansas City with their two children.

This appears to be true - the 1900 US census has an Abby Muir born in Wales in February 1858 living with her husband William, born April 1852 in Scotland and working as a stone mason. They have three children (David, Willie and James) and married in 1880, arriving in the USA in 1882. I located them in the Allegheny, Pennsylvania listings.

[Peter F Young]

Has anyone got the birth cert for the abovenamed:
Mar 1/4 1881 Carmarthen 11a 813?

No joy with baby Agnes connection in 1881 census, nor correlating Davies deaths 1881-3 to corresponding marriages 1878-80 in Carmarthen, probably covering someones old ground...

[Peter F Young]

Agnes Mary DAVIES

Has anyone got the birth cert for the abovenamed:
Mar 1/4 1881 Carmarthen 11a 813?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Miss Marple!

Thinking about a thing like this;

if there is a Mary Davies as tall as her husband, that might be a match! Remembering her being 5'7"!

All the best
Jukka

[miss marple]

I am going to order the certificates. Miss M

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Miss M. Worth digging a bit on those potential matches, methinks - perhaps Chris Scott has already done so? (If he hasn't yet, then it's a first ) I can't recall that specific marriage being discussed before.

Re. Kelly being in her twenties... perhaps 32/33 isn't all that far removed from "about 25".

[miss marple]

A mary marriage?

Gareth,
I was taken with the notion with your Halket St Kelly's that they had a daughter Mary who was born circa 1855 rather than 1864.
All the later variations of Kelly marrying Davies circa 1878/82 have not yelded a match, we have all searched those registers in vain looking for a match.
But the possibility of Mary being older, gave me the idea of looking further back and I found this.
It probably means nothing.
John Davies marries Mary Kelly Dec 1872 At Merthy T
I checked John Davies Deaths in the following quarter march 1873,
Two possible candidates at Merthy T John Davies age 29, John Davies age 22

I know there were hundreds of John Davies and the chances of one of those deaths matching to the marriage are remote. And I still believe Mary was in her twenties, but i am a bit freaked out as it is the only Kelly/ Davies union we have in Wales at the moment.
Regards Miss Marple

[j.r-ahde]

Hello John!

Since I think, that "Mary Jane Kelly" was just a pseudonyme: I once found a match Mary F. from Dublin. Though there was just one troublesome thing...

All the best
Jukka

[John Bennett]

The numbers literally have to match.
Miss Marple

Thought as much. Bum!

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chava
I don't know what murder case was being referred to but will see if I can find any details
I also am convinced that the Millers Court victim was not named Mary Kelly by birth
I was more interested in these accounts to see the kind of inquiries that were carried out in Wales very shortly after the murder and what they came up with rather than hoping they would lead to THE Mary kelly, which I do not think they will do
Chris

[Sam Flynn]

The numbers literally have to match.

I once knew a man named "Forty" and a girl named "Twoze". They never got together, which I always considered a crying shame. It strikes me that they missed out on a relationship of truly cosmic significance!

[Chava]

OK, I"ll bite. What murder was Mrs Rees up for?

As for finding Kelly, I wish we could. But I have an uneasy feeling her name wasn't 'Kelly'. It does seem to be one of those names that get handed round when people don't necessarily want their family to find them. Eddowes called herself 'Kelly' on occasion.

[miss marple]

The numbers literally have to match.
Miss Marple

[Sam Flynn]

1881 Wales Census
38 Halket Street, Llandaff
Head: John Kelly aged 45 born Ireland - Marine store dealer
Wife: Mary Kelly aged 45 born Ireland

This is the same Kelly family traceable through several censuses from 1861 onwards - they had a daughter named Mary, born Ireland in c. 1855. She wasn't living with the family by 1871 - they had broken up somewhat - the father and two of his children relocating in Bedwellty, and at least two of the sisters in the Cardiff Union school (a number of the offspring of "broken" families were sent to such establishments).

Mary (junior) possibly also turns up in the Cardiff Union School, albeit with her birth-town given as "Liverpool"; I'm pretty certain that two of John Kelly's daughters (from Halket Street, Llandaf) were listed alongside her, so this might be the same girl. When most of the family were reunited in Halket Street in 1881, Mary (junior) was still missing, and I've yet to trace her. Her brother, Dennis, appears in the 1891 census for the Glamorgan District Asylum as a lunatic soldier.

I posted the full details here a little while back. It's an intriguing story, even if it isn't "our" Mary.

[John Bennett]

Having had a big go at 'finding Mary Kelly' myself, I have to say, it's a frustrating task, I think Chris S. would agree. You find a possible lead, only to have it scotched by a wrong detail, like wrong name for father or that she's still alive in 1891 or whatever.

The most drawn-out thing was finding a Mary (Jane) Kelly marrying a Davis.

One I did find was a Mary Kelly who married a Davis (I'll have to go back over what I went through) in Wales - I think it was around 1880. The reference number of the Kelly registration was different to the Davis registration, but only by one figure, e.g. Kelly said 1b 97 and the Davis one said 1b 98. These are not the actual numbers, by the way.

I spent hours going through the marriage records and I'm sure I made notes. Is this a relevant find or do the numbers literally have to match?

I've no doubt Chris that you may have already clocked this one.

JB