The Night She Died

Perrymason,

As I just posted -- you cannot use the Inquest to make arguments as to who the police believed or didn't believe -- quite the opposite, in fact. I theorized about this point over eight years ago on this board.

I will point out to you that on the 17th, George Sims wrote that he thought it was "the Kennedys" who saw JtR. And he wasn't an idiot, mr mason.

So, based upon what you just wrote, you are in agreement that Kennedy and Lewis were NOT the same person, correct?

Hi again Marlowe,

I think first without detail Ill say that I do think who appears in court to testify, and who doesnt, called by the contemporary police is very relevant, and in answer to the question....my frank answer without being glib is that we have no idea if a Ms Kennedy or Kennedy Family has been authenticated to any degree, after all these years of looking for that validation. We know the women in the courtyard were known by the names they gave, lived where they said, used the archway to enter the courtyard that night, and that 2 of 3 knew Mary well...and that their stories were given in full at the Inquest...including Sarah's tale of earlier that week I might add.

I think Im just re-iterating their findings to-date Marlowe.

Stories that are from "Kennedy", "Hutchinson", ..or the only person we know is actually named what we know her as, Carrie Maxwell, have been relegated to "just stories" long before my argumentative self came on board....and Ive not seen anything that has come to light since that would change that status.

Cheers Mate.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

I do believe she was killed in the night rather than the morning. I don't see why Hutchinson's story should be regarded as discredited. Obviously you can take bits of his story and question those, but I don't buy into the idea that the meeting itself was a fiction. Certainly Abberline didn't. And as I can't see Mr A allowing Kelly to get undressed and get into bed before killing her, I believe that the killer turned up later.

[Marlowe]

Perrymason,

As I just posted -- you cannot use the Inquest to make arguments as to who the police believed or didn't believe -- quite the opposite, in fact. I theorized about this point over eight years ago on this board.

I will point out to you that on the 17th, George Sims wrote that he thought it was "the Kennedys" who saw JtR. And he wasn't an idiot, mr mason.

So, based upon what you just wrote, you are in agreement that Kennedy and Lewis were NOT the same person, correct?

"Even if we believe Hutchinson's account, she went into her room with Mr Astrakhan at around 2.10 am and I doubt he'd keep her alive for upwards of 50 minutes before he killed her."

Therefore the murderer arrived after Mr A left.

Hi Robert,

I dont intend to ever factor a discreditted story into a potentially accurate scenario for the evening myself, but I wondered why you might entertain it...maybe its just a desire to see the explanation you'll get.

People are aware that we have medical evidence that can narrow the times that certain last events in her life took place, arent they? Not so sure they are, based on the potential stories that have Mary out of the room after 3am and even throwing up her last meal while most certainly already dead, around 8am.

All the best for the New Years Robert...cheers.

[Robert]

"Even if we believe Hutchinson's account, she went into her room with Mr Astrakhan at around 2.10 am and I doubt he'd keep her alive for upwards of 50 minutes before he killed her."

Therefore the murderer arrived after Mr A left.

[Marlowe]

I know that Chava -- I was poking fun at Ben for jumping in after I addressed my post to you....

Happy New Years all,

Marlowe....I wouldnt think that defending a story that was heard by police before the Inquest yet not deemed worthy to be given at it, should tell you something about "Ms Kennedy's" account. Hutchinson is a different animal. We dont even know of his story until after the Inquest Monday night, but we do have the knowledge that his late report of a sighting was dimissed by the authorities before November 16th. Mrs Maxwells was dismissed even before letting her speak, and she was warned as much while on the stand.

So you have "Kennedy" that claimed one sighting before the Inquest, and she is gone from the investigation before the Monday Inquest...you have another who was assumed to be fabricating details after less than 3 days investigating his story, and you have one that the coroner told to her face on the stand that her evidence doesnt jive with any known believable evidence that was given before or at the Inquest.

Can you cite evidence that shows that kind of dismissal was present with either Mary Ann Cox, Eliabeth Prater or Sarah Lewis' statements? Since two of those women incontrovertably knew Mary Kelly personally, and one was giving evidence about her visit into that court that night herself, then they are the witnesses that should be listened too.

Tell me Kennedy, Hutchinson and Maxwell had the same pre-existing relationship with the deceased and the courtyard on the night in question.

The witnesses we can trust suggest a story that is almost to the letter, what Chava has suggested.

To use your tactics....I know you would like to believe witnesses that saw Mary Jane out of her room after midnight, but none of the contemporary authorities agrees with them, and as a result, now you.

Having a desire to accept evidence that police did not is normal I think, we all think were capable of putting things together at least as efficiently as they did, but resurrecting witnesses stories that they did not believe at the time is not a viable way to affirm any of the three discarded statements I mentioned.

Read any book on this issue that is well researched and by credible sources, and you will see that the official line is that Mary Ann Cox saw Mary last, at the end of the calendar day before she dies.

Best regards Marlowe, all.

[Chava]

Is "Ben" an alias for Chava, too???

Your inquest argument doesn't work:

Pall Mall Gazette, November 13.

"Why did the Inquest close so abruptly?"

"Some surprise was created among those present at the Inquest in the Shoreditch Town Hall by the abrupt termination of the inquiry, as it was well known that further evidence would be forthcoming." Kennedy among others, were likely to be called, but the inquest was closed, abruptly.

Not to mention that if Sara Lewis was Mrs Kennedy, then you would be forced to either accept Mrs Kennedy's account or drop Sara Lewis' account: You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that they were one and the same, with Sara telling the truth and Kennedy not telling the truth. You would like to, I know...but, you can't. And, your other argurment, that Kennedy was parroting Lewis, is one that you can't prove. Kennedy said she saw Kelly, while Lewis never said that, so your argument that Kennedy was parroting Lewis falls right on its face. You can't "parrot" an account that never existed.

Marlowe, Ben and I are not the same person.

[Marlowe]

Is "Ben" an alias for Chava, too???

Your inquest argument doesn't work:

Pall Mall Gazette, November 13.

"Why did the Inquest close so abruptly?"

"Some surprise was created among those present at the Inquest in the Shoreditch Town Hall by the abrupt termination of the inquiry, as it was well known that further evidence would be forthcoming." Kennedy among others, were likely to be called, but the inquest was closed, abruptly.

Not to mention that if Sara Lewis was Mrs Kennedy, then you would be forced to either accept Mrs Kennedy's account or drop Sara Lewis' account: You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that they were one and the same, with Sara telling the truth and Kennedy not telling the truth. You would like to, I know...but, you can't. And, your other argurment, that Kennedy was parroting Lewis, is one that you can't prove. Kennedy said she saw Kelly, while Lewis never said that, so your argument that Kennedy was parroting Lewis falls right on its face. You can't "parrot" an account that never existed.

[Ben]

Read the Evening News, November 10. Mrs. Kennedy saw Kelly at 3:00am with a well-dressed man -- the same man described by Hutchinson

Nope.

Mrs. Kennedy was either an alias of Sarah Lewis, or a false witness who was parrotting the evidence of Sarah Lewis. Either way, the cack had been filtered out by the date of the inquest which is why she wasn't called to appear there.

I crave any excuse to go through this again.

Any excuse.

Best regards,
Ben

[Marlowe]

Chava,

Read the Evening News, November 10. Mrs. Kennedy saw Kelly at 3:00am with a well-dressed man -- the same man described by Hutchinson.

[Chava]

We're getting far afield on the Rent Arrears thread so I thought I'd establish this one.

The timeline, as I believe it is as follows:

8.00 pm. Joseph Barnett, her former live-in lover who visits her almost every day takes his leave of her and returns to his lodging house.

8-11.30 pm. She is seen drinking in pubs. She may have been the woman seen 'very drunk' in the Ringers with a well-dressed moustached man.

11.45 pm. Mary Ann Cox sees her going up the court with a moustached man carrying a pint of beer. This could well be the man referred to above. She commences to sing as soon as she goes into her room. She continues to sing for well over an hour. This is corroborated by a couple living above her. Cox leaves around midnight.

1-1.20 am. Lizzie Prater stands outside the entrance to Millers Court. She doesn't see or hear Kelly.

1.00 am. Cox returns for a warm-up. Kelly is still singing, and continues to sing as Cox leaves a few minutes later. We have no record of Prater confirming Cox's account of her movements, but it may be that Prater was never asked to do so, or it may be--and I think this is more probable--that she did confirm seeing Cox but there is no written record of this.

No one sees or hears Kelly's moustached companion leave.

However, if Cox's and Prater's evidence holds up, and there is no reason to doubt them, Kelly, if she left the court at all, did not leave until after 1.20 am.

2.00 am. George Hutchinson asserts that he sees Kelly in the area of Commercial St and Flower and Dean St. She hits him up for 6d, and when he declines, she says she must go and find some money. She then picks up a man Hutchinson had just passed and the two of them return to her room.
Hutchinson says he waited outside the court for 45 minutes but neither of the two appeared. He left.

2.30 am. Sarah Lewis enters the court and notices a man standing at the entrance looking up the court. She doesn't see or hear anything from #13.

3.00 am or thereabouts. Cox calls it a night. No light or sound coming from Kelly's room.

3-4.00 am? Lizzie Prater and Sarah Lewis hear a cry of 'oh murder!' coming from somewhere in the court.

10.45 am. Bowyer finds Kelly's body. Doctors put her time of death at around 2.30-3.30 am.


Now, for the record, I don't put any stock in the 'murder' cry. I don't think that has anything to do with the killing for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Kelly would probably be dead by the time it was heard. Even if we believe Hutchinson's account, she went into her room with Mr Astrakhan at around 2.10 am and I doubt he'd keep her alive for upwards of 50 minutes before he killed her. I also don't think Kelly would have had the time to scream anything as articulate as that.

Also for the record, I don't think Kelly went out after she turned in with Blotchy Face. I suspect someone she knew paid her a visit after she had gotten undressed for bed and she unfortunately let him in. I also suspect this man had a relationship with Kelly such that she would not question his right to spend the night with her. I believe the poor woman let him in, turned and got back into bed.