The Night She Died

Hi Mike,

Yes, but the alternative presumes that she must have flicked the switch off the latch. Since we know from Mary Cox's evidence that the door was in its latched condition at 11.45pm at the earliest, it's quite conceivable that it remained so until the killer arrived. If the two carousers were as tanked up as the evidence suggests (well, Kelly specifically), there's every reason to suppose she simply flopped on to bed and never gave the door another moment's thought. This wouldn't be remotely unusual since Chief Inspector Moore specifically bemoaned the East Enders' habit of failing to lock their doors.

Cheers,
Ben

Hi again Ben,

Fair points, however when the room was on that latch earlier, she wasnt in the room. She had gone out with plans to return home at some point, leaving the door "pushable" might just be a result of that knowledge. It might even be why she wanted an escort home, to be with her when she opens the door, knowing someone could have entered the room in her absence, and be inside hiding.

However if she is left alone in the room by Blotchy, it would likely be after the singing had ended and her room went dark. Perhaps she "canoodled", but I cant see a serenade night logically ending that way myself. At that time, based on the fact she is carrying a tune minutes earlier, I believe she would still have her safety in mind when he leaves.

It may well be that her manner of dress, only partially undressed, is representative of the fact that she felt comfortable falling asleep in any attire with a locked door.

All the best Ben.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

What that presumes is that after letting Blotchy out she neglected to leave the latch "off"

Yes, but the alternative presumes that she must have flicked the switch off the latch. Since we know from Mary Cox's evidence that the door was in its latched condition at 11.45pm at the earliest, it's quite conceivable that it remained so until the killer arrived. If the two carousers were as tanked up as the evidence suggests (well, Kelly specifically), there's every reason to suppose she simply flopped on to bed and never gave the door another moment's thought. This wouldn't be remotely unusual since Chief Inspector Moore specifically bemoaned the East Enders' habit of failing to lock their doors.

Cheers,
Ben

[Ben]

Probably because Kelly had left the door on the latch, BW. Upon entering the room, the killer need only have flicked the latch to lock the door.

Ben

Hi BW,
Not necessaily. He could also have gained entry simply by pushing the latched door open. I'd say that a night-shirt or chemise is fairly standard bedwear, especially for a small room being heated by a fire. Either that or she had succumbed to sleep in that condition after entertaining Blotchy, and a third possibility is that the killer removed any outer layers of clothing himself to gain access to the thorax.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

What that presumes is that after letting Blotchy out she neglected to leave the latch "off", so it would lock when she closed the door on him. Maybe its just me, but I believe that Mary would have seen the audience to the door when she had enough entertaining for one night. And if she did that, why wouldnt she make sure the door locks?

She only has that door latch between her and strangers being able to enter her room, since the key was lost...we have no reason to suspect the window method was widely known...so I think if she was inside alone, she locked it.

Cheers Ben.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Ben,

I thought that when the cops arrived the could not open the door because of the latch, So how could the intruder just push the door open?

BW

[Ben]

Hi BW,

Now she would have had to let him in or he knew how to open the door from the window.

Not necessaily. He could also have gained entry simply by pushing the latched door open. I'd say that a night-shirt or chemise is fairly standard bedwear, especially for a small room being heated by a fire. Either that or she had succumbed to sleep in that condition after entertaining Blotchy, and a third possibility is that the killer removed any outer layers of clothing himself to gain access to the thorax.

Best regards,
Ben

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Robert,

You said in Post 998 "I believe that the killer turned up later."

Now she would have had to let him in or he knew how to open the door from the window.

If the later were true, then why is she wearing skimpy cloths to bed?

I believe she was entertaining a guest/boyfriend.

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

How do we know that the kettle spout was not damaged weeks earlier?

Or that Mary may have thrown a couple of her items in the fire because she was running out of available fuel for the fire; it was after all a cold damp night.

If she did not have a client/boyfriend there, I would think that she would have been dressed warmer for the night.

BW

[BLUE WIZZARD]

If they were undergarments, perhaps she just wanted them to be warm when she put them on in the morning, seeing how it was getting colder outside.

How can any one tell when the fire was lit? Or how long it was burning.

BW

[Chava]

Richard, can you give us a link to the sketches?

Best,
Chava

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The trouble with us attempting to understand where articles were, and where they might have been is we really have no idea what kellys room interior looked like, only sketches showing the layout , but no photographic evidence of the crime scene apart from the gruesome ones.
We can only go by the sketches, and they do show boots near the fireplace, in such a position that they proberly were placed there for the purpose of drying, that being the case, it would appear that Kelly was alive when the fire was alight, as a non lit fire would be no use for boots to be dried, and placed facing the grate.
Her clothing also, according to the sketch I am refering too, shows what appears to be clothing draped across a partially broken backed chair, again handy by the fire if they needed drying , which apparently if [ as i believe] it was raining at 2am, and 8am, a journey out would result in wet clothes.
So what do you all believe the most likely time the fire was lit, if Kelly herself lit it to dry wet clothing?
At 1am-3am
8am -
Regards Richard.

[Nemo]

If Mary's clothes were in front of the fire, I think they were wet. This indicates to me that Mary was out in the rain.

Otherwise the clothes would impede the warmth of the fire...

[Chava]

I don't - but any reasonable person can tell that it wasn't flung there with gay abandon. No time machine required, Chava. The photo is enough.

I don't think I used the word 'flung', Gareth. I said 'rolled'. I think any reasonable person would walk away from this right now. So I will let you have the thing most important to you in life--the last word. I know how highly you value it.

[Sam Flynn]

But if you see a photo of a rolled-up/folded-up blanket on the side of a bed, resting against the wall, how do you know how it got there?

I don't - but any reasonable person can tell that it wasn't flung there with gay abandon. No time machine required, Chava. The photo is enough.

added to the last post....

I believe only Blotchy Face is on record going to Marys room with Mary, other than the "Joe's", and if he was a client, I would think the evidence suggests it was as an audience for a songstress. Mary sang off and on for over an hour.

Cheers