Kelly photo 1 enhanced - graphic

Both Dr Gabe and Mcarthy,according to the extract from the Jamaican Gleaner,entered the room where Kelly lay.According to the doctor,the hair was tossed back,so perhaps it was the hair that Mcarthy was able to identify.It is said to have been bright ginger or red,a not too common colour,and together with the style or length,the most singular feature that allowed both Barnett and Mcarthy to testify the body was that of Kelly.

Hi Harry,

I believe thats likely spot on.....the hair would be one of the least or undamaged parts of her, and where not soaked by blood, might have been clearly identifiable to those close to her. But hair color can be created as well.

All the best Harry.

[harry]

Both Dr Gabe and Mcarthy,according to the extract from the Jamaican Gleaner,entered the room where Kelly lay.According to the doctor,the hair was tossed back,so perhaps it was the hair that Mcarthy was able to identify.It is said to have been bright ginger or red,a not too common colour,and together with the style or length,the most singular feature that allowed both Barnett and Mcarthy to testify the body was that of Kelly.

Is there any photo's of MJK in the morgue after she was cleaned up? it seems strange that other victims had ones done and not MJK?

Hi Jay,

My guess would be no, there probably wasnt. In part, because they "re-built" Mary as best they could, called a "Volte Face"...things like her arm which was almost severed would have been stitched in place. Pieces of her, large flesh sections, were stitched back on. They did this to be sure of what was missing. If you notice...the morgue shots are taken by either hanging the corpse from a nail....yes, awful ....or leaning the corpse up against a wall. I doubt that Marys stitched together remains could be either hung or leaned....and we do know the jurors were only shown her head.

Cheers Jay.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jay,

We're lucky to have the photos we have. No doubt there were others - and not just of Kelly - that have gone missing over time.

[Jay Batsford]

Is there any photo's of MJK in the morgue after she was cleaned up? it seems strange that other victims had ones done and not MJK?

Well then we agree my good man.....Im less sure than you are.

But enough for tonight for me.....Ive been sleeping until only 3am this past week, time for a book and bed.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Mike - I really don't have a problem with Barnett having an initial peek through the window (if it happened) and then making a formal ID after the body had been prepared.

Then, as now, there were formalities to go through - and, if nothing else has changed since 1888, you can be sure that the British love of red tape was as strong as ever.

What Im wondering is ......if this man had peeked in through the window.....would he be reticent about actually entering the room with that scene lying there?

He looks through a window of a room he used to live in, on a bed where he used to sleep with Mary, and sees that awful spectacle with red hair. Does he need to be made to look hard at that corpse to firm the identification? Is the site and the memories and perhaps her hair enough to say....I cant look at that anymore....its her, Im sure.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

You may not like it, but Barnett peeping through the window is the closest to a positive ID we've got.

That's not quite true, though, is it Simon? There were formal visits to the (cleaned-up) corpse arranged by the inquest.

Bowyer and McCarthy had both peeped through the window on the morning the body was discovered. I suppose it's possible that the Star of the 10th November got its wires crossed, and allowed one or other of these "peeps" to leech into their Barnett story. Assuming this wasn't the case, there were clearly opportunities to view the body under favourable conditions from the Saturday afternoon onwards, after the doctors had completed their post mortem at Shoreditch morgue.

It's not a question of whether I like it or not. The fact remains that a quick shufti through a broken pane on the morning of her death was not the last chance people had of viewing the body of Mary Kelly.

Almost certainly not, Mike. It would have been impossible, I'm sure you'd agree, to have made out the ear and eyes amid all that mess, from that distance, and in less-than-ideal lighting conditions.I suspect that Barnett (like the jurors, but possibly not at the same time) was taken to the mortuary to view the stitched and cleaned-up body there.

Hi Sam,

The logical human in me says of course he had an opportunity to actually get close enough to make out the features he says he knew. There is a chance though.....based solely on the Star story of him seeing Mary from the window at this point....and perhaps the absence of the actual details of his identification...who was in the room, who took his ID down.....that kind of thing....that leaves it as possible that he identified at least 1 of 2 features on Mary that could not be seen from the window.

Even having that as possible is annoying...but its the case I think.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

So.......did his peeking through the window constitute his Identification

Almost certainly not, Mike. It would have been impossible, I'm sure you'd agree, to have made out the ear and eyes amid all that mess, from that distance, and in less-than-ideal lighting conditions.

or did he have a closer, in the same room, inspection with her that afternoon

I suspect that Barnett (like the jurors, but possibly not at the same time) was taken to the mortuary to view the stitched and cleaned-up body there.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

You may not like it, but Barnett peeping through the window is the closest to a positive ID we've got.

Regards,

Simon

Thats good stuff Sam.....and important here in particular...because as you note, and Ive said youve noted.....is that it appears we cannot discern those features within the image we have. The skin or flesh covering that area is sound, and I can make out what I feel may be evidence of that.

So.......did his peeking through the window constitute his Identification.....or did he have a closer, in the same room, inspection with her that afternoon when the features were mentioned and confirmed by him.

You know, ...the fact his ID is just that...2 features....maybe supports a quick look from a few feet away.

Cheers Gareth

[Sam Flynn]

Kelly's head is inclined towards the pillow (this is apparent from her hairline, if nothing else). On that basis, the axis of her features is not slap in the middle of her "face", but rotated downwards. Bearing that in mind, it's possible to gauge reasonably closely where her eyes, nose and mouth were likely to have been:



I've not tried to be "definitive" here - it's just a crude guide. However, suffice to say that the eyes, nose and mouth were in rather different positions than one might assume at first glance.

(Prior to the Casebook crash, I superimposed a cutout of a woman's skull, appropriately rotated, against Kelly's head, and the alignment was almost perfect.)

[Majewski79]

This has got to be one of the most interesting threads I've ever seen. However, while looking at this picture, I can't help but notice, are her eyes (pupils) actually visible here? Is it just me seeing distorted detail or am I wrong? I put two little black dots where I think it is what I am seeing. The picture is chilling to begin with but.. I dunno, visible eyes would completely send this image over the top.