Kelly photo 1 enhanced - graphic

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"I really cant imagine him kneeling on her bed between her legs doing his dirty work"

Why is that, Michael? Surely it is a very feasible suggestion?

The best!
Fisherman

[Ben]

I agree, Anna.

I'd be rather surprised if she took the time to fold her clothes if she was undressing for a client. It needn't be incompatibile with intoxication, though; a drunk person will often take exaggerated caution over mundane routines, almost in compensation for their otherwise haphazard behaviour.

Best regards,
Ben

Just to add to Ben and Anna, I think A) is very likely too Richard. Since we have evidence that Jack cuts through some clothing in previous kills, it doesnt seem plausible that he would remove her stockings, or stocking, before working. Maybe he just pushed up her chemise, or cut it open.

I really cant imagine him kneeling on her bed between her legs doing his dirty work, but I think it would be equally unlikely that if he was right handed, he worked just from the left side of the bed. Very awkward angle for some of those cuts. I think its quite possible this killer was lefthanded.

Best regards all.

[anna]

Hi Ben,
I agree....I favour "A" too....
This also revives the interesting thought of whether she would be able,or indeed feel like,folding her clothes on the chair....I would of thought if she was in a drunken stupour,that she would have just discarded them where she stood,or throw them onto the chair.We have Dew saying that she was always seen out dressed neatly....which sort of ties in with her wanting to fold her clothes,for when she next needs them.There again,we only have the witnesses opinion that she was drunk.We don't know for sure.
I have had another thought on this.....that is,that Jack may be so fond of Kelly normally,and knows she likes to look neat....so in feeling guilty afterwards,folds her clothes for her...even thought he knows she won't be needing them..I'm thinking of Barnett,here.
I can relate this to grief also....as I kept my dad's glasses after he was gone...as he had really bad eyesight and couldn't see a thing without them...even though I knew there was no possibility he would ever return...I had to do it.... (oh dear,now I'm crying...silly Anna).Maybe that's just me,I don't know.
Anyway,Just some thoughts folks.
ANNA.

[Ben]

If she was killed by a intruder, surely she would have been in bed, with her bedroll not in the position found?

Unless the killer did the "rolling" himself, Richard, to allow him more space for mutilating. Difficult to gain access to abdominal organs through a sheet!

I quite like your option "A" though.

All the best,
Ben

[Gabrielle]

I have been looking and looking for hours at the pics (and especially this incredible good enhanced one).

At first glance I always assumed she did wear sock(s).
Her right leg ascertained me she did wear something on her right leg, also because of the black line (improvised garter.??) you see...which in my humble opinion is no cut!
It is just too clean to be a cut..

And I myself rather see the blood stains on her right leg as if it is on fabric, not like smears on flesh...

On the left leg in between the ankle and the knee I see a slight difference in colouring as if a sock is there, allthough her toes are bare..? Legwarmers of some sort a possibility???
---------

I haven't got the time right now to look it up, but is there evidence MJK had had intercourse? Seems kinda difficult with all the fluids there to be sure of that- at least in those days...

But I just want to know for sure because Richards' post and other long known details got me thinking...

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
There appears to be dispute regarding was there /was there not a stocking apparently of woollen material on Kellys right leg.
surely one can see [especially the ladies] what Jane has described in her recent post as being clearly knitted fabric?
If one takes that on board, also the undisputed understanding that her left leg was bare, what does that imply?,their appears two explanations.
a] Kelly in a drunken stumour, undresses down to her chemise, removes one stocking her left, but passes out before getting round to removing the other
b] kelly is attacked in her room while undressing leaving just her right sock on, and a chemise.
Before plumping for either suggestion, one should take on board the bedroll which is shown rolled up on her bed, which appears to me that Mjk was killed in daylight hours, and she herself had already rolled back her bedclothes on awakening, and was undressing to either service a client or about to return to bed when attacked.
If she was killed by a intruder, surely she would have been in bed, with her bedroll not in the position found?
Of course another possibility is that she was undressing for Blotchy, or Astracan, and either one of them could not contain his excitement to allow kelly to remove her last two garments?
What are your views, taking into account the sock anf the positioning of the bedroll, not to mention her clothing /boots, and the weather conditions at 1130pm, 2am, and 8am, all these points are relevant, in investigating this crime scene.
Regards Richard.

[Sara]

No stockings: from the report of the attending doctor:

<< Dr. George Bagster Phillips was also present at the scene, and gave the following testimony at the inquest:

"The mutilated remains of a female were lying two-thirds over towards the edge of the bedstead nearest the door. She had only her chemise on, or some underlinen garment. I am sure that the body had been removed subsequent to the injury which caused her death from that side of the bedstead that was nearest the wooden partition, because of the large quantity of blood under the bedstead and the saturated condition of the sheet and the palliasse at the corner nearest the partition.

The blood was produced by the severance of the cartoid artery, which was the cause of death. The injury was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead >>

It sounds as if she was lying on her right side facing the wall with her back to her visitor when she was attacked; let's hope it was mercifully quick.

Now I'll try to find the inventory of her possessions which I know I've read on here recently!

[Blackkat]

I'm certainly aware that it may be a hair or some artifact but still I stated what it "looked like" even though my eyes may be playing tricks on me. Then again the circle area did look like stitching a little too.

Hairy legs, that is funny. LOL - but ya know her other leg was bare so why not just off with that "other sock" too, if there was indeed another sock on her left leg. If that is hard to cut through, knicking vertebra is hard to do too, and the killer had enough rage and strength to do just that. I still don't see a sock because of the way the blood is smeared on the inside of her left calve. Now the black circular cut under the knee - I have no idea could be a makeshift garter - out of shoestring, I don't know, some say cut. It doesn't appear to me she had a sock on her left leg - could be wrong but that's just my visual impression.

It would be nice to see the original photo to see if the circle with "writing" in it, is on the original photo or if that's happened over time.

Oh hey Sam, I could see your "G H" too

[Jane Coram]

I wondered who would be the first to spot that..... We're all allowed to have brain burps now and again and it was bearly noticeable. Lol. You do realise you've opened to way to a run of bare/ bear jokes don't you Robert? Hee hee

xxxxxx

My daughter just roared and said, 'You dozey cow.'

[Robert]

"If she wasn't wearing a stocking on that leg, (not the other one, which I think was bear) then she had very hairy legs."

Indeed bears are generally hairy.

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

What I find amazing is that you can actually see the stitches of the knitting quite clearly there. I don't know if there are any fellow knitters out there, (and that includes the men! ) but it looks like knit 2, purl 2 rib, at the top there, over where the knee is, changing to stocking stitch lower down, which is exactly what you would find in a knitted stocking of the time. (The ribbing is designed to make the top slightly more elastic to help keep it up.) If she wasn't wearing a stocking on that leg, (not the other one, which I think was bear) then she had very hairy legs.

I quite like the idea of the thickish 'black' line around it being a make shift garter of some kind, or as an alternative, it could be that her killer attempted to cut through the woollen stocking and found it was too much effort (knitted wool is notoriously hard to cut through with even a sharp knife) and decided to move further up the leg where it was an easier target.

The 'black' line there is consistent with a thin cut which would actually cut through the flesh underneath, but not cut through the thickness of the wool above. (Odd, I know, but have a go on an old wool sock and a piece of fruit! ) The blood from the wound below would seep into the wool above and look something like that.

I'd go for it being either that or a garter of some kind.

Sorry, I can't see any numbers or letters there. I suspect the circle might be a photographic artifact of some kind.

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Sam Flynn]

...perhaps the photographer had what's called "a hair in the gate".

Worth noting that this particular area of the photograph seems to be covered in scratches. That doesn't inspire much confidence when trying to interpret what's there.

As to "Janet", Kat, the previous caveats still apply - particularly the one about the fine-nibbed pen. If the line describing that "circle" is only a millimetre or so thick, the nib that produced the "writing" would have to have been only microns wide. Personally, I see "GH" there...



...but I know that's just my eyes playing tricks on me.

[Blackkat]

Chris,
That's exactly what I thought. That after the photo was developed at some point - someone drew this on the photo - that's why I thought I saw the word Jack written inside of it. Maybe someone had done that for whatever reason. Then again looking at the photo you posted you can make out the word *Janet*

The only other thing I thought of was that IF MjK had a sock or some kind of clothing on, that she stitched in an extra reinforced area over the knee, but my first thought was someone circled that area on the photo - maybe to identify the photo? :shrugs:

[Chris Scott]

Hi Gareth
Re. the ring on Kelly's leg near the camera on photo 2
Looking at this closely, (see below from original form of the photo) my immediate thought was that it looks as though some one has drawn this in pen on the photo, though why they might have wanted to highlight that area is not clear
Regards
Chris