MJK Murder Oddities

[Sam Flynn]

I do agree that your interpretation is possible

Rather than its being my interpretation, it's a straightforward reading of Prater's verbatim inquest testimony, Mike. This is distinct from the woolly summary contained in the Times, which dangerously leaves out at least ¾ of the relevant context.

I did see her refer to sounds and light regarding Marys room via the partition, but at least one quote I saw in the last 24 hours had her remarking specifically about her visual/hearing capabilities from "ground level"...

You put "ground level" in quotes, as if that's what she said - but be careful! Prater used a similar phrase when she tells of her waiting for someone outside around 1 AM, at which point she was "on the same level as deceased's window". There's no mention of her hearing capabilities at that point and, even if there were, this is no indicator of what Prater was capable of hearing after she'd climbed the stairs and gone back to her room.

[Chava]

Of course there is another thread that examines all the testimonies together. I started it and then forgot! Duh! Anyway, I'm heading over there to check it out. It's grown since last I was there.

What concerns me about Prater's evidence is that I doubt she'd notice one way or the other if there was light there. The only way she'd note a light would be if the light was really strong. Think about it. You walk home at night. You are looking forward to putting your feet up and relaxing for a while alone--I'm guessing Prater did a lot of walking up and down various streets and had to put up with quite a bit of not-necessarily-attractive company. Do you pay attention to your neighbour's house? I think you don't unless you see something very unusual. What Prater meant, I suspect, was 'I didn't notice anything like that fire they told me was burning in there all night'. If there was a glimmer of light coming through the old door, I doubt she would have noticed. She looks back. Doesn't remember seeing a blaze of light. Says it was dark...

I know this has been discussed, but Prater lives above the shed, doesn't she? So she's not directly over Kelly's room. She says she would have seen light from #13 as she went up the stairs. Where were the stairs? Did she access them from a point beside #13? Probably just past that water pump thing? Because what she says could mean that the partition was so thin between Kelly's room and the stairs, not between Kelly's room and Prater's room.

However there is still the problem that Cox hears Kelly singing at 1.00 and Prater hears nothing at all. I'd like to know how those two were telling the time. Did the church clocks and brewers' clocks chime throughout the night?

Hi Chava,

Youve asked the 64,000 question...was her room over Marys....and there really is no simple answer. She is quoted as saying it was, floor plans of the residence disagree, and we do have the quote that she resided over the shed....although not from Elizabeth herself, but as part of the article from the author. What she could hear, and how, are key points on where the call might have orginated, and we cant be certain.

The stairs were accessed via a doorway inside the archway, and were to the right of Marys partition wall. The partition is really a partial wall with doorway and a jamb that has been sealed with a used door. Some images reveal what appears to be the faded number 26 on that door in the jamb. There would be cracks she could see light through, due to the less than flush fit likely of the door in that space.

Cox hears singing because she walks past Marys room at approx 1:15am....Prater doesnt even come in until almost 1:30....the singing had ceased by then, and Elizabeth who entered via the archway, didnt see Mary or Blotchy leave when the room goes dark and quiet.

Elizabeth Prater is quoted in her own words that she lived above Mary, she herself said she could hear Mary moving about without the "through the partition" qualifier....she has said that she heard the voice as if "from the court", virtually impossible without her having a courtyard window...and there are images that show such a window.

Its not clear cut....but I believe despite the floor plans, the cumulative data seems to suggest that she lived above Mary, and could see and hear through the partition in places, and she could hear Mary moving about below her when in her room.

Best regards.

[Chava]

I know this has been discussed, but Prater lives above the shed, doesn't she? So she's not directly over Kelly's room. She says she would have seen light from #13 as she went up the stairs. Where were the stairs? Did she access them from a point beside #13? Probably just past that water pump thing? Because what she says could mean that the partition was so thin between Kelly's room and the stairs, not between Kelly's room and Prater's room.

However there is still the problem that Cox hears Kelly singing at 1.00 and Prater hears nothing at all. I'd like to know how those two were telling the time. Did the church clocks and brewers' clocks chime throughout the night?

Hi Sam,

I appreciate you digging around, I have seen those quotes...as recently as today in fact.....but I think youre too generous in thinking the first sounded like where I might have got that remark from. It isnt specific regarding furniture, and Im still fairly certain there is one that speaks to that, beyond her answering a direct question on hearing such noise.

I do agree that your interpretation is possible, I did see her refer to sounds and light regarding Marys room via the partition, but at least one quote I saw in the last 24 hours had her remarking specifically about her visual/hearing capabilities from "ground level"...being on the same level as Mary, as in about to start up the stairs.....and sounds she could hear when she was in her room.

When asked directly, DID she hear furniture move when she awoke from Diddles walk-over, in her room...not COULD she, or WOULD she have,...she said she heard nothing, followed by..she fell asleep again right away. It appears as if her statement is that she could have heard such things, but didnt, and she fell fast asleep again.

I saw reports that had her seeing no light, not noticing, hearing her through the partition...and not hearing things she might have heard when she was in bed.

If you look through most of them, her contention that she could hear Mary move about isnt limited to when she was on the other side of the partition climbing stairs.

Ill keep digging around....and I do see your side Sam, just that I believe there is a quote that more directly addresses whether she could hear things move, and from where she could hear them.

Best regards as always Sam

edit.....Sam you also have to acknowledge that some of these quotes refer to Elizabeths comments on her rooms location as being "directly above" Marys room.....something that would add more credence to her ability to hear sounds from #13 if accurate.

Thats why I had the Open Door pitch about the "oh-murder" before on other threads....if Elizabeth didnt hear the sound as "from Marys room"....which if she was above it would make sense, if she hears other things....so why did she hear the voice "as from the court"? Cause her window faced the courtyard and a 2 storey wall, and Marys door was open. At least thats my suggestion on the events.

Cheers again.

[Sam Flynn]

Found it!

Mike, here ya go:

The Times, 13th November 1888
"Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her. Witness lay down on her bed on Thursday night or Friday morning about 1:30 with her clothes on, and fell asleep directly. She was disturbed during the night by a kitten in the room."

That doesn't say directly that Prater had heard Kelly moving about on previous occasions, but it's probably where you may have got the idea from. However, that's clearly a rather potted précis, written in the 3rd person. Here's the more "verbatim" report in the Daily Telegraph of the same date.

The Daily Telegraph, 13th November 1888
Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: "My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below. I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four."

Note that the greater detail conveyed by the phrases flanking the Telegraph account (viz., "I should have seen a glimmer of light", "in going up the stairs" and "the partition was so thin I could have heard") give crucial contextual information that shows the inadequacy, and potential to mislead, of the corresponding section in the Times. Reading the fuller accounts given in the Telegraph (and some other "verbatim" reportage in other papers), as well as the official inquest records, shows that Prater's statement about being able to hear Kelly was made in the context of her passing the thin partition on her way up the stairs.

1. No such article exists on the Casebook press reports section or any book. Unless you've done first hand research and found an article nobody else has seen, which of course you haven't... 2.... Because your research is limited to reading what other people post on this site, you did not read it anywhere.

Looks like you were confused about something you saw, stored a faulty version in your memory, ...3......and are now unwilling to admit making a mistake.

So what else is new?

Daniel, Daniel....so quick to start a pile-on,....you must have confused me with yourself Dan, because I never claim to know every bit of every article or press report ever written about these cases....see 1.....and 2, I have read a great deal on this site, and on others, and in paperback and hardcopy, though I wont contest your more intimate knowledge with things that have little or nothing to do with the murders themselves.....and 3, I have made mistakes here and acknowldeged them readily, since I am not infallible. I guess that makes one of us huh?

I will continue to look for an article that says Elizabeth could hear furniture moving about in Marys room specifically, if I am mistaken that it was worded that way, you have my apologies, ....but only you would by-pass the quotes I quickly provided, including her being asked directly IF she heard furniture move in Marys room after the "oh-murder"...not WOULD she HAVE heard, or COULD SHE hear that sort of noise. It seems clear by the other quotes and snippets that Mrs Prater said she could hear Mary moving about in her room, which was below hers according to those quotes.....(which is Sams sticking point I believe, not the idea that she could hear things from Marys room)......and when she was asked that question, it's phrasing alone indicates that the person asking the question believed the respondent could comment legitimately on noise such as that. Since she had acknowledged that ability in other context, such as hearing Mary "moving about" in the room.

In your leap to rub someones face in a mistake, which it may still be, you neglected the subtext of the posted quotes plus all the others not posted, which support the possibility that somewhere "furniture moving" and "Mary moving" might be intermixed in quotes, you asserted beyond any doubt that all possible sources that exist in the world do not have that quote....inferring you are an expert on the totality of data ever written on, about, or regarding the Ripper, .....and you made accusations about someone that can be proven wrong simply by some back reading here on Casebook.

Ive never encountered someone so happy to be belligerent, and so emphatic about being seen as an "expert". Got a hint for you Dan, the experts here are mostly the ones that act like gentlemen....maybe just try and emulate their style.

Ill let you know if I find the quote, but suffice to say, if not, my apologies, but again, the quotes that are available support Elizabeth feeling she had that kind of ability...to hear Mary, and furniture, which of course would be much louder than bootsteps.....from her room.

Cheers.

[Chava]

There were a couple of other things that led me to McCarthy back in the day. One thing was that he didn't open the door to Kelly's room with the key he must, as landlord, have had. Then there was all that money she owed him. People explain it by saying he was trying to get her into a situation where she had to go out hooking for him. But these girls moved around. All she'd have to do to avoid that was flit! I think he could have done it. If he was consumed with anger, and started trying to 'do a Ripper' I could see how that could get out of hand. There has always seemed something personal to the Kelly murder which you don't see in the others.

But I'm in agreement with you and everyone else. If Kelly was as drunk as Cox suggested, I don't see her going out after bringing Blotchy-Face back home. So Blotchy has to be considered a suspect--especially with the handy pot he brought with him which, as I observed in another thread, could carry some bits and bobs quite nicely and privately...

[claire]

Well you know, I've always suspected that McCarthy might have killed Kelly himself and faked a Ripper murder. She owed him a hellova lot of backrent, and could well have had something on him. He was there. He could have gotten in and out quickly and quietly. But if he didn't do it, I very much doubt he knew who did. Unless he himself hired it done as a contract. Every so often some East End person seems to have poked his/her head over the parapet and said 'I know whodunnit'. But if they did, why didn't they tell someone? If McCarthy knew who killed Kelly--and he lived for a long time after the murders, why didn't he say who it was?

McCarthy is a very tempting suspect for me. and I can make a fairly good case. But I suspect the reality is the anonymous East End Working Man with a nice line in patter and a fast hand with a knife.

I agree, Chava...I go through scenarios where McC Jr. kills Mary in a rage and then stages it to look ripperish. But then I think, wow, you'd need a pretty strong stomach. (And things like, 'get a grip, you've been reading too much fiction!') And, yes, I tend to the anonymous working man, too.

But I just can't believe, as noted by others here, that someone absolutely sauced could be bothered hauling themselves out of their room to turn a trick unless they were pretty much badgered into it. McCarthy would be one person with a vested interest in badgering her into it.

[Dan Norder]

I am sure I read it.

No such article exists on the Casebook press reports section or any book. Unless you've done first hand research and found an article nobody else has seen, which of course you haven't because your research is limited to reading what other people post on this site, you did not read it anywhere.

Looks like you were confused about something you saw, stored a faulty version in your memory, and are now unwilling to admit making a mistake.

So what else is new?

Perhaps you could point me to a specific source for that, Mike? Most of the press reports detailing Mrs Prater's evidence refer to her "interview" at the Inquest, and as far as I can recall she never said that she had on previous occasions heard furniture being moved about in Kelly's room.

Hi Sam,

To be honest I dont recall offhand which it was either, but I am sure I read it. I know the Telegraph said she could hear Mary move about through the partition wall, and the Times reported on the 13th that "Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her."

The St James Gazette said on the 13th that "She used to hear the deceased walking about in her room." The Telegraph said on the 13th that she was asked about furniture moving when she awoke from the Diddles incident, and it says "Did you hear beds or tables being pulled about ?"... Prater "None whatever. I went asleep, and was awake again at five a.m. I passed down the stairs, and saw some men harnessing horses. At a quarter to six I was in the Ten Bells."

The Daily News on the 13th reported that she said "I live in No. 20 Room, Miller's-court, and the deceased lived below me."

Being Sunday night here Sam, Ill give another look tommorow and see if I cant find it, but hopefully Ive given you some support above for that kind of remark.

Best regards Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

Just a quick reply to Sam, perhaps I shouldnt have said at the Inquest, as I dont recall all the various versions of her statements reported, but she did say to the press that she heard it when furniture was moved about in Marys room.

Perhaps you could point me to a specific source for that, Mike? Most of the press reports detailing Mrs Prater's evidence refer to her "interview" at the Inquest, and as far as I can recall she never said that she had on previous occasions heard furniture being moved about in Kelly's room.

Hello all,

Just a quick reply to Sam, perhaps I shouldnt have said at the Inquest, as I dont recall all the various versions of her statements reported, but she did say to the press that she heard it when furniture was moved about in Marys room.

On the issue of her alledged departure that night Sam, you are incorrect when you say it is more probable that she went out based on the gaps of coverage of her rooms state.

If we disregard George Hutchinsons after Inquest story...as the police did by November 16th, and we discount the credibility of Mrs Maxwell, based on the evidence submitted that directly contradicts her, the opinion of the Inquest on her remarks, and her overall knowledge of Mary Kelly and vice versa, which is evidently the official line on her....then we have no witnesses that saw anything but darkness, and heard no noise, when they happened by her room 13 after 1:30 am. The room could have been reported on 4 times,...first by Cox leaving after 1, then by Prater at 1:30, then Cox when she returns and by Sarah when she has entered. The first has her singing around 1:15...the second has her room dark and quiet, the 3rd has her room dark and quiet still, and the 4th didnt mention anything...leading one to surmise there was nothing to draw her attention to her right when she entered the court, including any light cast upon the wall opposite Marys windows. (edit) I do not mean to say Sarah was the last one into the courtyard, Mary Ann was.

If you follow the contemporary investigators lead and discard both Hutchinsons and Maxwells testimony about seeing Mary Kelly out of her room after 11:45am the 8th, then you have zero evidence with which you may suggest a trip out, and multiple room sightings that would make a departure and arrival unseen or heard even less likely.

When coupled with a lack of need to secure any doss for the bed that night, the fact that she was hammered and singing for an hour since she arrived home during which time the rain intesified outside, you have very little in the way of plausible motivation for a street whore with a record of not giving a fig about rent arrears resulting in her eviction elsewhere, to bundle up drunk and go stand in the rain to earn money she had nowhere to spend that night, and no need for, having eaten and drunk her fill already.

Kate was passed out by 8pm,...when these girls go on a tear they drink till they are broke or cant drink anymore...thats why she is home before the pubs closed I believe.

My best Sam, all.

[Roy Corduroy]

Who knows, if not a peep, then Mary Jane just went to sleep. And Mrs. Maxwell was telling the truth about the next morning when she saw her.

Roy

[Celesta]

I don't believe the cry of 'Oh murder! had anything to do with the Kelly killing, I have never thought that.

Hi Chava,

While I'm not totally on the page with you on this one yet, I can see how it would free us to concentrate more fully on other possibilities, like the fact that no one but Blotchy, pint pot and all, heard a peep out of Mary after Cox left for the last time.

Best,

Cel