Visit to Millers Court by Phillips and McDonald

[joelhall]

I've always thought that it meant that the heart was 'absent', meaning removed from the chest as opposed to 'absent' meaning removed from the room. So the heart was found in the room and sewn back up inside Mary before burial.

would a doctor not examine the organs removed to, as that is what a post-mortum is for? i find it hard to believe the examiner would have kept it out of the way, as the coming coroners inquest would need to note all of the medical evidence, nor do i believe the doctor would leave out something like this to start with if only for professional pride & conduct.

[steje73]

I've always thought that it meant that the heart was 'absent', meaning removed from the chest as opposed to 'absent' meaning removed from the room. So the heart was found in the room and sewn back up inside Mary before burial.

[Mitch Rowe]

It depends on who is going to notice him in the first place. If he had a heavy coat on I guess he could just put it in his pocket? Its not a question that hasnt been raised before. Others have surmised the gladstone bag theory since before MJK was even dead. maybe he just put it in a sack and walked home with it.
The point is.. If Bonds report is correct then there was no heart to begin with. The logical thing for Phillips to do was to put everything in its proper place to understand what JTR did.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Mitch!

I didn't mean at all, that dr. Bond's report would have been a hoax. On the contrary, it is far more reliable than the press reports!

I was just wondering, that how he could carry them away unnoticed!

All the best
Jukka

[Mitch Rowe]

Hello Mitch!

If he took the heart with him, the following problem occurs;

How and how did he do it unnoticed?!

I quite freely admit to be one of the least medically-educated members here, but;

With common sense, that - literally - bloody pump could have pretty hard to hide, wouldn't it?

All the best
Jukka

He got away with a few uteri! Half a kidney! Either the heart was there or not. It dont make sense that Bonds report is a hoax. If the heart is absent then it was not there to begin with.

It wasnt found and it wasnt burned. The only conclusion is that JTR did something with it. And that something included taking it away from 13 MC.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Mitch!

If he took the heart with him, the following problem occurs;

How and how did he do it unnoticed?!

I quite freely admit to be one of the least medically-educated members here, but;

With common sense, that - literally - bloody pump could have pretty hard to hide, wouldn't it?

All the best
Jukka

[Mitch Rowe]

Nah..How could JTR have enough time to cook and consume a heart? First he has to obtain it. They werent looking for no heart parts in the refuse. It must have been something else. But why Doctors? The story dont make any sense at all to me now. But Im sure the heart was missing.

Unless of course if they thought he cut the heart and threw pieces into the fire?

[Mitch Rowe]

perhaps the fire was stoked in order to cook the heart. Maybe there were some cooking utensils left out, and the heart was missing, so they looked for uneaten portions.

Cheers,

Mike

Now that is a scary thought. JTR eating MJKs heart inside 13 Millers Court! Nah..Thats too fantastico to even work as the truth! Could it??? Could JTR have been more of an animal than any of us imagine?

I just thought of how stupid they were when they made "From Hell" the movie. This stuff is far more creepy!

[The Good Michael]

perhaps the fire was stoked in order to cook the heart. Maybe there were some cooking utensils left out, and the heart was missing, so they looked for uneaten portions.

Cheers,

Mike

[Mitch Rowe]

Could it be possible Phillips was with holding the information about the heart?
If Bonds PM is not fake then they didnt find the heart. But why would anyone trying to fake a report say the heart was absent when it was understood since the Crime itself that no parts were missing?

If that heart was found Phillips would have put it where it belonged Im sure of it. They didnt send it for any test. No reason. She was Murdered in the first place. It didnt roll on the floor and was forgotten.

There seems to be no reason why the heart was absent!

My only conclusion then is:

Phillips with held that information!

[Dave O]

Hi Chris and Alex,

You might be interested to know that Wynne Baxter also visited Miller's Court the same day as Macdonald, in preparation for his own inquest on Mary Kelly. Baxter anticipated that the authorities in Shoreditch would send Mary Kelly's body into Whitechapel in order to throw the burden of burial onto the ratepayers there. It's part of that weird jurisdictional anomaly between the Northeast and Southeast Middlesex coroners' districts that existed 1888-1894, where the districts did not line up with the sanitary districts (Spitalfields and Shoreditch in Macdonald's coroner's district, Whitechapel in Baxter's districs, but at the same time Spitalfields was also part of Whitechapel Sanitary District, Shoreditch the Shoreditch Sanitary District, I think). There would be times bodies would be cross the districts--Annie Chapman is another example, leaving Macdonald's district for Baxter's (but in her case no problem with the burial costs).

A double inquest for Mary Kelly was averted when Henry Wilton paid for Kelly's burial instead. A similar event happened in March 1889, Louisa Ellesden, when her body actually was sent into Whitechapel, and Baxter felt compelled to hold a second inquest following one by Macdonald--that was evidently based upon his (Baxter's) interpretation of The Coroner's Act 1887. Both Samuel Montagu and the Home Secretary criticized Baxter for his decision in the House of Commons and when Macdonald died in 1894, the London County Council seized the opportunity to put Spitalfields back into Baxter's districts so the sanitary districts would align with the coroner's district and they wouldn't get these bodies hopping boundaries and potential double inquests.

I had a thread about it under the Roderick Macdonald section, The (Nearly) Double Inquest for Mary Kelly, but it got lost in the crash.

[aspallek]

The human body is very resilient. It would be very difficult to destroy completely a human heart by burning it in a fireplace, even with a very hot fire. I have no doubt they were looking for remnants of the missing organ.

[Dan Norder]

Surely considering how thorough Bond's notes are he'd have mentioned finding it?

Absolutely. And if they had found it they wouldn't be looking in the fireplace for it later.

Press accounts are pretty unreliable, not only because they can get facts wrong (or invent them up if it suited them) but because they simply weren't in a position to know. Whatever Bond said has to be considered far more reliable than what the papers had to say.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Interesting, very interesting...

I couldn't help wondering, if being so secretive with the heart caused to the rumours about pregnancy...

All the best
Jukka

[Bailey]

So, according the article Alex has posted (and I'm sure I've seen other references to same, tho I may be remembering the same article quoted elsewhere), all parts of Ms Kelly are accounted for and she is fully reassembled. How do we view this in relation to Dr Bond's notes of the removal of the heart - was it taken away from Miller's Court entirely, or simply removed from the body and found elsewhere in the room? Surely considering how thorough Bond's notes are he'd have mentioned finding it?

B.