So was she really Irish or Welsh?

[ianincleveland]

I think she was Irish but picked up the welsh language from moving to wales as a very young child.she maybe also had traces of a Welsh accent for the same reasons.i speak with an East cleveland/Teesside/north yorkshire accent but most of the older generation of my family were Lancastrian so i have a few Lancashire phrases etc in my accent despite having never lived there.So its reasonable to assume that Kelly living in Wales had some knowledge of Welsh and the odd phrase of Welsh in her accent.She was even apparently married to a Welshman after all.


Southern irish with a slight Welsh lint...bet she sounded rather nice:

[Sam Flynn]

I'd like to know the source of the "City Missionary's" statement, as I haven't seen it before.

Happy to oblige, Graham. The "missionary's position" was given in the Daily News, 12th November 1888.

[Graham]

None of which, annoyingly, negates Kelly's story of having moved to Wales when young, etc.

Sam,

Maybe so, and I can't argue against MJK being Irish and moving to Wales, etc., but I'd like to know the source of the "City Missionary's" statement, as I haven't seen it before.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

"It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick."

None of which, annoyingly, negates Kelly's story of having moved to Wales when young, etc.

[Graham]

"There is no doubt," says a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got thirty four of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother. It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and respectably dressed, and looked quite nice and respectable."


Chris,

Could you please tell me the source for this?

Thanks

Graham

[claire]

Well, all due respect to Mary, but I don't know that she would have been a devout Catholic, even if she was Irish...and fancying a nice cup of tea was reason enough to head off to the missionaries. Btw, I think they were generally evangelists, but first and foremost (cf. the work of the Wesleyans at the Old Mahogany Mission, a hop and a skip away from Ms Mary's stamping grounds), charity was the principal objective.

Mind you, there's no substantiated reason to believe that, even if MJK had given such an account to the missionary, it was necessarily true, however lovely it sounded.

[Chava]

Those city missionaries were evangelical weren't they? And Kelly would have been Catholic. I'd be surprised if she went near one of their meetings unless she felt like a nice cup of tea.

Also I'm pretty sure that de mortuis nil nisi bonum applies to all these accounts of Kelly. All the other victims sound like lovely women as well, I'm sure for the same reason.

[Roy Corduroy]

Chris, did you find her in workhouse records? Maybe this has been reconciled since but I missed it. Your thoughts please, Roy

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/10474.html

[Chris Scott]

Hi Nancy
As with so many things connected with kelly, this can end up as a circular argument in that the only detailed version of events we have comes from Kelly herself via Barnett. If we place any credence in Barnett/Kelly's account of her early life, then there is no ambiguity. This states quite unequivocally that Kelly was born in Limerick and that the family moved when she was "very young" to Wales.
There is the mention of letters being received at McCarthy's for Kelly. However, a much firmer mention of letters from Ireland is contained in the account an of unnamed City Missionary who was interviewed and quoted as follows:
"There is no doubt," says a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got thirty four of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother. It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and respectably dressed, and looked quite nice and respectable."

On the other side, one must bear in mind the account of an unnamed young woman who claimed to know Kelly and asserted that Kelly was Welsh and indeed spoke Welsh.
I did conjecture in the Mary Kelly book that, if this account has any truth, it is possible that Kelly spoke Erse (Irish gaelic) and the young woman may have mistaken this for Welsh. But this is only conjecture.
Hope this helps
Chris

[Sam Flynn]

Hi David,

what Mac Carthy said is significant

What may also be significant is that it was not uncommon for immigrant families to split, or for people to return to the "mother country" for various reasons. Then, as now, not all immigrants remained permanently in their "second home" forever.

Remember, too, that McCarthy only knew Kelly and Barnett for a period of months - if they'd lived on his books for several years one might attach more significance to the "letters from Ireland". As it was, the period during which this correspondence was received would only have reflected a snapshot of Kelly's life away from home.

[Sam Flynn]

It seems unlikely as most people were leaving Ireland to find work in England

That's not strictly true, Nancy - South Wales in particular saw comparatively large inward migrations of Irish families in the wake of the Potato Famine, drawn by the employment boom in "The Valleys" (coal and metal-works) and what were then some of the busiest industrial ports and docks in the world (Cardiff, Newport and - to a lesser extent - Swansea). North Wales, too, had its fair share of Irish immigrants, particularly in Flintshire/Deeside, and for broadly the same reasons - albeit the coal industry was practically non-existent in comparison with the South.

[DVV]

It's quite possible too she picked up the Welsh accent after living there.

A friend of mine from Hull moved to Birkenhead, and stayed for many years. When he returned he was speaking scouse!

Regional dialects are easily picked up and can become one's own after a while residing in the area!

Very true Mike, and that's a blessing!
However, I believe Nancy's question was about her being Irish or not, and that is why, in this respect, what Mac Carthy said is significant - more than Barnett's words, that were, indeed, Mary's own words merely repeated.

Amitiés,
David

[Mike Covell]

It's quite possible too she picked up the Welsh accent after living there.

A friend of mine from Hull moved to Birkenhead, and stayed for many years. When he returned he was speaking scouse!

Regional dialects are easily picked up and can become one's own after a while residing in the area!

[kensei]

My understanding from all accounts is that she was born in Ireland but that her family moved to Wales when she was still a very young child, so much of her memories of growing up would have been from Wales, as well as those of her teenage marriage. So one could imagine that depending on how much detail she wanted to go into, based on how well she knew a particular person, she might have answered the question "Where are you from?" with either Ireland or Wales.

[DVV]

Mac Carthy said that she sometimes received letters from Ireland (from her mother). That could be a clue and confirm she was Irish.

Amitiés,
David