What most Kelly "Groupies" seem to forget and/or ignore...

[Supe]

Joel,

as it happens victorian life-expectancy is believed to have been lower than that of the middle ages, due to living conditions affecting child survival rates.

A bit of a generalization that. To begin with, the "middle ages" is a rather long period of time that saw several plagues and famines. Moreover, gathering the necessary data is difficult and spotty at best. And, in line with childhood deaths, life expectancy varies over an individual's life span.

As an example, studies of mortality rates in 17th C New England by many researchers (inluding, sigh, yours truly) indicate strongly that once a male in that period attained 20 years of age his life expectancy was at least as long as that of similar males in the same towns today. In the same way, once females reached the mid-forties (past the age of parturition) their life expectancy was actually greater than that for like females today.

There are doubtless many reasons for that and some, at least, some can be hypothesized. The climate of New England is quite salubrious (stidies in the miasmic Tidewater regions of Maryland and Virginia by Menard, et al. suggest much lower life expectancies at comparable times) and while the winter diet, expecially, was boring it was healfully full of dried vegetables.And so on,

It is trie that life expectancy reached a modern nadir for England in the mid-Victorian period, but began to rise in the last quarter of the 19th C. The same is true for morphology as improved nutrition resulted in gains in average weight and height in the last quarter. And comparitive studies indicate that the poor were several inches shorter, on average, than both the middle classes and the well-to-do in that century. Not surprinsingly, those from areas liked the East End fared the worst of all.

In any case, Whirechapel was not a healthful place to live in the 19th C.

Don.

[Suzi]

Hiya Nats-
I agree here apart from the fact that maybe Buxom may have meant 'er well endowed with 'er 'busty substances'!. And Walter Dew always sets me off on one from time to time with his references.
Oh well time for bed me here- a new week beckons!!! (Oh deep joy!)...Hope you're OK

Suz xxx

[Natalie Severn]

It was also Walter Dew,one of the detectives on the case who was later involved in catching Crippen who wrote that he had seen Mary in the street with her friends,always with a neat apron on.He said Mary was quite pretty and rather buxom----buxom meaning stout.So if Mrs Phoenix said so as well as Walter Dew, it looks like Mary was at least quite well built.It was Mrs Phoenix who said Mary was "as fair as a lilly" whatever that means-I think Mrs Phoenix was Irish,so the phrase probably means "lovely" or "lovely looking".I sometimes wonder if Walter Dew really knew what he was talking about because Mary hadnt been on the game for twelve months because she had lived with Joe,until days before her murder---as far as we know ---- yet Dew talks of her" parading herself" in the High Street.Maybe we should take his remarks with a pinch of salt.
Norma

[KatBradshaw]

Well if Mary was asking GH for money at 2am it is certainly possible that it was to buy food with and that she got it elsewhere.

[Suzi]

Hi Kat-
Yes I remember you
Now- It could also suggest that she ate early on the morning that she was found-despite the vomitting etc etc. (Something else again)

As to the fish and potaoes-To have got into the stomach could be an hour at tops!

(Considering most of Mary's intestines were 'out of body' -I imagine that's where the remains(!) were found)*

This would tie in and be in kilter with Mary eating either VERY late at night or very early in the morning

*To quote Bond c/o Begg-'In the abdominal cavity was some partly digested food of fish and potatoes,and similar food was found in the remains of the stomach attached to the intestines'

Now this wouldn't suggest a great deal of time that the said meal spent in the old digestive tract would it.....

Suzi

[KatBradshaw]

Hello all. You probably don't remember me but I was around a bit before 'the crash'.
I think that the fact that Mary still had the remnants of the food in her tummy suggests that she ate late. This is not surprising though as I imagine her lifestyle was a bit out of cilter with normal working hours. Drinking and working late would mean she probably ate later than most. A bit like when I was a student.

[Suzi]

You have to remember, among all the flesh on the table there was a baphomet statue too, so it is quite misleading

It is amazing how quick, given the right conditions the human body can lose weight. If MJK was living the high life then plunged into the dark abyss, her eating habits will have possibley been affected by her income or lack thereof.

All this talk of Fish, chips and potatoes is making me hungry!

Fish ,chips AND Potatoes Mike????

Joking apart (ish) I can't believe that our Mary bought her own 'fish supper' on that fateful night/morning though
... Wonder where that did fit in....was it an early morning attack of the 'munchies' alone or with another 'customer/friend' or did Mr Blotchy have that along with his quartern of ale...nice supper!!!

[Suzi]

How did we miss it all along!!!!!!!

joel- We'll never be able to make a comment re Mary's abdomen let's be honest- and if she hadn't met her 'untimely' Gawd knows how long she'd have toddled along for....

[joelhall]

one major factor that is overlooked with statements like this is life expectancy. this is not how long one will live but a mean average life-span. infant and child mortality plays a very large role, so its not fair to say that a 25 year old would age quicker than now. as it happens victorian life-expectancy is believed to have been lower than that of the middle ages, due to living conditions affecting child survival rates.

as for stout looking.... the legs and arms in the photo show this was not the case. more than likely she was affected by poor diet & alcohol which caused the abdomen to bloat, or it could merely be the way she wore her clothes.

joel

[Suzi]

Hi Mike- For those unaware of the wondrosity that is Baphomet- and there may be the odd one or two.. Picture [A] shows Baphomet and Picture [B ]shows the table with the Mary bits and 'er Baphomet!!!!
[A]

[B]

Come on!!!!!!! you can see it can't you!!!!!! He heeeeeeeeeeee (shame on you!!)

Suz xx

[Mike Covell]

You have to remember, among all the flesh on the table there was a baphomet statue too, so it is quite misleading

It is amazing how quick, given the right conditions the human body can lose weight. If MJK was living the high life then plunged into the dark abyss, her eating habits will have possibley been affected by her income or lack thereof.

All this talk of Fish, chips and potatoes is making me hungry!

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Yes Jukka I agree looking at the bits and pieces shall we say and what was left -I wouldn't say that Mary (or whoever) was a particularly LARGE/STOUT person at all- The head appears to have a fairly square jaw,and a wide brow- but that's about all we can say isn't it?

I mean there weren't pounds and pounds of flesh on the table in MJK3 were there....and unless JTR ran away with dirthy great lumps of fat,tucked somewhere about his/her person - as a trophy (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)- then that was all that he stripped off of Mary!!
Odd convo here but true I think!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Brenda!

One thing worth to remember, though;

There was so much flesh in the room also for this reason; MJK was about as tall as the men of the time, being 5'7" (170,28 in centimeters).

What it comes to the "reubens-like" outlook, I find it possible! Even girls with that kind of a body structure can be sexy-looking!

But, let's be honest in this discussion: all we have is the crime scene photo. Thus the overwhelming interest to her face and outlook!

Me, being honest myself; I am not an expert on anatomy, yes. But what I can make of the crime scene photo, is, that the body is not stout-looking.

All the best
Jukka

[Suzi]

Nice one Brenda!!!
Beauty is after all in the arms of the Holder!!
Fat (!!!!) according to The Oxford Book of Quotaions- a lovely one is.....'Fat Fair and Forty is all the toast of the young men'!!!- (Well hubby is reading and saying ' Have patience woman'...

... This is a great line .... from JC... ' Let me have men about me that are fat ;
Sleek- headed men and such as sleep o' nights;
Yond' Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much:
Such men are dangerous.

Heeeeee heeeeeeeeeee At the end of the day---is intelligence measured in pounds??

Suz x

[emlodik]

He he!!!!! I was going to say re that line 'Get a grip' but realised that your grip on English is a damned sight better than my Russian will ever be!!!
Hey come on Mike!!!- There are some wonderful women who you may describe as 'stout' I seem to recall Mel Smith or someone singing 'Sing if you're proud to be stout'!..I have a hell of a lot of time for the Jo Brand/Dawn French/Hattie Jakes etc etc etc of this world!!!

Heeeeeeee heeeeeeeee my builder who's working here at the moment just came in and said....wait for this and hold onto your coffee.............'I'm just doing some laying in the front porch-do you mind if I use your back entrance?' Aaaaaaaaaagh covered in coffee here!!!

Actually, my English is nearly perfect, it's just that I've been recently posting on my cell phone and the predictive text has it's share of glitches.