What most Kelly "Groupies" seem to forget and/or ignore...

[Brenda]

I'd imagine that, for those used to living Out West, being plunged into the poverty of the East End might result in a few pounds, if not tears, being shed over time.

Well, I guess it would all depend on how much beer, fish and chips got consumed along the way, and how much time was spent burning calories as opposed to being a....bed potato?

Seriously though, no one ever talks about what Liz Stride's size was, or the fact that Frances Cole had an exceptionally pretty face. But it is so interesting that these two issues keep coming up to be discussed regarding MJK, over and over again. If she had been one of the ugliest, fattest women in the community, it shouldn't make any difference but I have a feeling for some that it WOULD. I can't pinpoint why this is considered so important for MJK's image, and its not her age, because Frances was younger than MJK.

I don't want to start the debate up again here, but I am one of the ones that believe the object on the table next to MJK is flesh and that she was rather fleshy in life (but in a totally voluptuous and sexy way, I'm sure!). Let's face it, a whole lot of flesh had been removed from her body and put somewhere in that room. I find it hard to believe that the photographer went through the trouble of moving her bed (MJK 2 Photo) just to zoom in on a hip bone or whatever that is protruding under the chemise in that photo. I believe the purpose of that photo was to document both the flesh and the little pile of intestines (?) by the side of the bed. But that's enough of that, like I said, I don't want to start a debate!!!

All statements are my own opinion, as always.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Brenda,

Mike, I pretty much agree with your assessment, especially as the papers of the time described her as "stout."

Isn't it the case that the reports of Kelly's "stoutness" appear to emanate from a single source, Mrs Phoenix? If so, her story was reported practically verbatim in various papers, which suggests that what we have is a single, syndicated press-agency report, rather than multiple corroborative accounts of Kelly's being "stout". Not that I doubt Mrs Phoenix when she thus describes Kelly - but it's worth reflecting that Phoenix knew Kelly from her days lodging with Mrs Carthy, some years prior to 1888.

Back then (if Kelly's story is to be believed), she had just been precipitated into the slums of Ratcliff after having lived the (comparative) high-life in a West End gay-house. Small wonder, then, if she had been somewhat more Rubenesque on her arrival into the East End than she'd come to be later. I'd imagine that, for those used to living Out West, being plunged into the poverty of the East End might result in a few pounds, if not tears, being shed over time.

[Suzi]

Oy, I'm sorry! Did make you mad again? I was just watching a "A Study in Terror" not ten minutes ago and the Annie Chapman subplot in that film never seizes to amaze me!

He he!!!!! I was going to say re that line 'Get a grip' but realised that your grip on English is a damned sight better than my Russian will ever be!!!
Hey come on Mike!!!- There are some wonderful women who you may describe as 'stout' I seem to recall Mel Smith or someone singing 'Sing if you're proud to be stout'!..I have a hell of a lot of time for the Jo Brand/Dawn French/Hattie Jakes etc etc etc of this world!!!

Heeeeeeee heeeeeeeee my builder who's working here at the moment just came in and said....wait for this and hold onto your coffee.............'I'm just doing some laying in the front porch-do you mind if I use your back entrance?' Aaaaaaaaaagh covered in coffee here!!!

[Brenda]

Chances are, MJK was considered somewhat attractive for the time and place and social conditions, was overweight or plump, but we wouldn't give her a second look today.

Mike

Mike, I pretty much agree with your assessment, especially as the papers of the time described her as "stout." Stout is stout, there's just no way to redefine stout. But there are people that get quite defensive if it is mentioned that MJK might have had a beer gut or carrying an extra pound or two, and that has always intrigued me. It makes me wonder if some would care less about her as a victim if it turned out she didn't live up to their ideal of what they thought she should be. I hope they wouldn't stop caring!

[The Good Michael]

I've seen the comment several times regarding someone looking younger than their age. That statement means different things to different people, different races, different climes, and to different times. If a 40 year- old of today, for example, looks like a 25 year-old in the Victorian world, and the Victorian was said to have looked younger than her age, then she might look like a 38 year-old today, whatever that means. The statement that someone looks younger than their years is really quite meaningless as a general statement, and only useful as an individual's perspective at the time and place, and regarding the factors of race, social position, cleanliness, ethnic background, health, body fat, sun exposure for the observee, and many factors that make up the observer's perspective. It is useless in my mind to even speculate on such a thing with regards to the victims. Chances are, MJK was considered somewhat attractive for the time and place and social conditions, was overweight or plump, but we wouldn't give her a second look today.

Mike

[Mitch Rowe]

Heres my vote for what MJK looked like.

[emlodik]

I despair!

Oy, I'm sorry! Did make you mad again? I was just watching a "A Study in Terror" not ten minutes ago and the Annie Chapman subplot in that film never seizes to amaze me!

[Suzi]

I despair!

[emlodik]

OK fine- no worries..... BUT shall we look outside of the movie into the reality of the poor souls.......

OK let's move on.......OK.....?
AND there's been a few PM's back and fore here......and....I'm prepared to take a deep breath and say start again Evgueni

You mean even look past the super sexy Annie Chapman in "A Study in Terror?!" Anyway... So, in a GOOD Ripper movie, would you guys like to see an "educated guess" resolution at the end of the film (none of that Royal Conspiracy nonsense) or leave unsolved and just portray it as it was... An act of random violence and evil against five weak women with no point, reason or resolution. Oh, and Suzi, more pictures of cuddly kittens over here, please!

[Suzi]

OK fine- no worries..... BUT shall we look outside of the movie (which let's be honest was based on a graphic novel with a touch (!) of Stephen Knight) into the reality of the poor souls.......

OK let's move on.......OK.....?
AND there's been a few PM's back and fore here......and....I'm prepared to take a deep breath and say start again Evgueni

[emlodik]

The nice people of this board do not appreciate these terms that you are calling these ladies. I understand your point about glamorizing these girls, but it can be done with language befitting of a scholarly debate and not a classroom slanging match.

No worries Emlodik

I meant no disrespect for the real women, I was talking about the characters in "From Hell."

[Suzi]

Ok where did this start and where's it going???...Seriously though I'm not annoyed....well 'ish..... Carry on chaps............

Suz xx

[Mike Covell]

The nice people of this board do not appreciate these terms that you are calling these ladies. I understand your point about glamorizing these girls, but it can be done with language befitting of a scholarly debate and not a classroom slanging match.

No worries Emlodik

[Suzi]

OK no problems............ now where were we?

[emlodik]

, . glamorizing , slanging .

Well, I see that now, it's just that the message board I've used to post on before didn't really mind crass language. I see my mistake and it won't happen again.