Help On Some Details

[Wickerman]

Hi wick
But how could this couple be aman and mary? Sarah lewis arrived at the court/keylers 2:30 ish and hutch saw aman and mary go into the court at 2:15ish.

Hi Abby.
In some accounts Lewis is said to have got the time from Spitalfields clock, but was it as she passed, or was it because she heard it strike?

She does say she was "at the Keyler's at 2:30". In her inquest testimony she says:
" I was at her house at half past 2 on Friday morning".

That suggests to me that she heard the clock strike 2:30 while she was inside the Keylers. So, she does not say what time she arrived.
Whether she had been inside the Keyler's 5, 10 or 15 minutes, we do not know.
It is reasonable to assume Hutch was following the couple down Dorset St. between 2:10-2:15, roughly.
We just cannot place Lewis in Dorset St. at a specific time. So it wouldn't be true to say Lewis missed the couple altogether.

That she was able to hear the Spitalfields clock from inside the Keyler's is confirmed by a later remark: " I heard the clock strike half past three...", while she was inside the Keyler's.

Plus hutch watched them go into the court and marys room at which point he took up his vigil...then lewis arrives later and sees hutch there as she enters the court.

I don't see the need to place Lewis so far behind this couple, she only needs to notice this couple standing outside the court passage, and notice Hutch standing opposite, as she approached.
Lewis just did not think he was watching the couple, but waiting for someone else. So it seems to me Lewis was pretty close.

[Wickerman]

I see Wickermans idea. A real issue I have with it though is how can you tell someone is on the drink if you don't see them walk or talk? So if the women was in the drink as it were Lewis must have seen her walking. That creates a problem as Hutchinson says Aman and Kelly stood at the passage for three minutes. If thats the case then Lewis couple couldn't be Kelly and Aman. How else can you tell if someone is in the drink if you see them from a distance fleetingly.

Ok, but Dorset street was about 25 ft wide (Ordnance Survey Map), and Hutch could hear their conversation from at least that distance.
Christer has argued the distance could have been considerably further.

So, as we don't know how far behind this couple Lewis was walking, at least we can accept 25ft as a minimum, or a little further?
Lewis could have heard Kelly talking as she approached, then the couple walk up the court. They are at least 25ft+ ahead of Lewis, but Lewis's attention is not on this couple but the man across the street. Lewis pauses at the passage just long enough to take a look at the man, then enters the passage herself.
Lewis see's no-one in the court as she walks down the passage. She was far enough behind in both distance & time that she just missed seeing them enter room 13.

This is not so much a case of proving something happened, we only need to demonstrate it could have. That it wasn't impossible.

[Abby Normal]

I would say that is even more unlikely.

Why?
He followed her around the night of her murder, waited outside her place for 45 minutes in the middle of the night.

Then apparently says he thinks he sees the man again, stays up late looking for the man.goes with the police. Talks to the press.

Seems he was obsessed with kelly and this man she was with before during and after everything.

And another question. Didnt hutch tell the press he was up late looking for the man and that he told a policeman on the street about it before he decided to come forward to the station and tell his story?
If hes reluctant before he comes forward, why alll this? Again dosnt sound reluctant at all to me.

[Abby Normal]

According to JTR-CSI WHITECHAPEL P174 the passageway leading into Millers Court was approx 8 meters long. Now if the couple seen by Lewis were already in said passageway, and it was Kelly with a companion it would take them mere seconds to reach her room. And even if Lewis was at the Dorset St entrance when she saw them further on, it would only take her six or seven seconds to reach Mary's room. She must have practically fallen over them if she did not see which room they entered. And even if she saw them outside Mary's door just before they went in, there was a lamp just inside the court [mentioned by Cox], directly opposite Mary's room which would have shone even a little bit of light on Mary's front door. Surely as Sarah made her way them few seconds it took from one end of the straight passageway to the other she would have seen Mary enter her room, much as Mary Cox did earlier.
She might not have known who Mary Kelly was but Sarah Lewis the next day would know that the couple she saw, entered 13 Millers Court where the murder occured and she would have said so.
So either the couple Sarah Lewis saw wasn't Mary and a companion but someone else in Millers court who vanished the next day or more likely just a couple who were further up Dorset Street just passing along when she glimpsed them.
Regards Darryl

Hi dk agree
See my earlier post. Lewis arrived slightly after 2:30. Hutch saw aman and kelly enter the court at 2:15. It couldnt have been aman and kelly as you say.

[Abby Normal]

I would say that is even more unlikely.

Hi sd
I added some to that post. I think you responded before you saw my edits.

[Darryl Kenyon]

According to JTR-CSI WHITECHAPEL P174 the passageway leading into Millers Court was approx 8 meters long. Now if the couple seen by Lewis were already in said passageway, and it was Kelly with a companion it would take them mere seconds to reach her room. And even if Lewis was at the Dorset St entrance when she saw them further on, it would only take her six or seven seconds to reach Mary's room. She must have practically fallen over them if she did not see which room they entered. And even if she saw them outside Mary's door just before they went in, there was a lamp just inside the court [mentioned by Cox], directly opposite Mary's room which would have shone even a little bit of light on Mary's front door. Surely as Sarah made her way them few seconds it took from one end of the straight passageway to the other she would have seen Mary enter her room, much as Mary Cox did earlier.
She might not have known who Mary Kelly was but Sarah Lewis the next day would know that the couple she saw, entered 13 Millers Court where the murder occured and she would have said so.
So either the couple Sarah Lewis saw wasn't Mary and a companion but someone else in Millers court who vanished the next day or more likely just a couple who were further up Dorset Street just passing along when she glimpsed them.
Regards Darryl

[Sunny Delight]

He may very well been outside the inquest, he seemed to take a very keen interest in all things kelly

I would say that is even more unlikely.

[Abby Normal]

Yes, thats exactly what I am saying.



Lewis did not know Kelly (she said so), so this couple were of no interest to the coroner. The court recorder didn't write anything about this couple except, "another young man with a woman passed along".
It would be nice if the coroner had showed some interest and pursued the question a little deeper, but that is not Lewis's fault.
The press even reported more detail about this couple than the court recorder did.



Look at it from the coroner's point of view. Lewis saw this couple sometime between 2:00 - 2:30, they disappeared into one of the houses in the court.
A cry of murder was heard sometime between 3:30 - 4:00, roughly.
Why would this couple be of interest?

We can tell from the coverage of this inquest that the person's of interest to the coroner were, Cox's suspect - Blotchy; and the loiterer outside Millers Court; and the man outside the Britannia.
The couple seen by Lewis are just two strangers passing through the scene.

Their significance only became apparent when Hutchinson came forward and identified who that couple were.
Lewis didn't know the hatless, tipsy female was the victim.

Hi wick
But how could this couple be aman and mary? Sarah lewis arrived at the court/keylers 2:30 ish and hutch saw aman and mary go into the court at 2:15ish.
Plus hutch watched them go into the court and marys room at which point he took up his vigil...then lewis arrives later and sees hutch there as she enters the court.

So timewise and logistically lewis could not have seen mary and aman pass up the court, they were already well ensconsed in marys room by the time she arrived, no?

[Abby Normal]

The medical men had discounted Maxwell. She was even warned at the inquest that her testimony differed significantly from the others and the medical facts. I don't know who Maxwell saw but it wasn't Kelly. Of course Hutchinson became the star witness. That was why he went round the area to try and identify Aman. By the time that hit the press though what would be the point as Aman no doubt would alter his appearance. Not only that but a good police force will still have multiple lines of enquiry. Anyone seen with Kelly must be eliminated from enquiries.

How is missing the inquest a red flag? In any way? You think he heard at 5pm that the inquest was closed and showed up at the station at 6pm to give a false story to cover his own arse or to get five minutes of fame. Does this really seem likely to you?

He may very well been outside the inquest, he seemed to take a very keen interest in all things kelly

Missing the inquest, which was of his own accord, where he would be under oath and possibly seen by lewis and or other witnesses, not knowing what they were going to say or what or who they saw that night would be a smart move by a liar or a killer.

He wanted to control the cicumstances, and if he heard he was spotted by lewis maybe felt he needed to come forward as a witness and not be sought as a suspect.

If it wasnt for lewis, i have a hunch we never would have heard from hutch.

The timing of showing up just after the inquest concludes is also too much of a coincidence.

So yes red flag.

[Fisherman]

We don't know what Lewis's actual words were. She is not quoted at any length in any of those versions.
We are judging her words chosen by reporters who are paraphrasing what she said.

True - but they had all the reason in the world to be clear and concise about the events. I am pretty certain that the wording had been a different one had Lewis said what you believe she said.

As I say, neither point can be proven. But my mind is made up on the point, just as yours is, Jon.

[Sunny Delight]

he also heard Maxwell say she spoke with Kelly in the morning!!
but in comes hutch, the waiting and watching man he just heard from sarah lewis, and probably thought-OK this is corroborated. obviously hutch became witness numero uno to Abberline immediately.

and yes just happening to miss the inquest by a couple of hours no less is a red flag to me.

Abberline after realizing hutch was full of it was probably kicking himself he told his bosses he believed him, and was embarrassed, so never mentioned him again.

The medical men had discounted Maxwell. She was even warned at the inquest that her testimony differed significantly from the others and the medical facts. I don't know who Maxwell saw but it wasn't Kelly. Of course Hutchinson became the star witness. That was why he went round the area to try and identify Aman. By the time that hit the press though what would be the point as Aman no doubt would alter his appearance. Not only that but a good police force will still have multiple lines of enquiry. Anyone seen with Kelly must be eliminated from enquiries.

How is missing the inquest a red flag? In any way? You think he heard at 5pm that the inquest was closed and showed up at the station at 6pm to give a false story to cover his own arse or to get five minutes of fame. Does this really seem likely to you?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick I am assuming here that you are saying the couple Sarah followed went down the passageway before her and when she got to the end of the passageway they had already entered their abode for the night.

Yes, thats exactly what I am saying.

I have to say I am having trouble with this, not only does the coroner not ask Sarah did you see which house they went in but there is no mention of this couple in Millers court and who they were.

Lewis did not know Kelly (she said so), so this couple were of no interest to the coroner. The court recorder didn't write anything about this couple except, "another young man with a woman passed along".
It would be nice if the coroner had showed some interest and pursued the question a little deeper, but that is not Lewis's fault.
The press even reported more detail about this couple than the court recorder did.

There was only so many dwellings in the court and we know the police kept the occupants there until 5:30, [at least Sarah] the next day. Surely the police would have found said mystery couple but there is no mention of them.

Look at it from the coroner's point of view. Lewis saw this couple sometime between 2:00 - 2:30, they disappeared into one of the houses in the court.
A cry of murder was heard sometime between 3:30 - 4:00, roughly.
Why would this couple be of interest?

We can tell from the coverage of this inquest that the person's of interest to the coroner were, Cox's suspect - Blotchy; and the loiterer outside Millers Court; and the man outside the Britannia.
The couple seen by Lewis are just two strangers passing through the scene.

Their significance only became apparent when Hutchinson came forward and identified who that couple were.
Lewis didn't know the hatless, tipsy female was the victim.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Wick I am assuming here that you are saying the couple Sarah followed went down the passageway before her and when she got to the end of the passageway they had already entered their abode for the night.
I have to say I am having trouble with this, not only does the coroner not ask Sarah did you see which house they went in but there is no mention of this couple in Millers court and who they were. There was only so many dwellings in the court and we know the police kept the occupants there until 5:30, [at least Sarah] the next day. Surely the police would have found said mystery couple but there is no mention of them.

I see Wickermans idea. A real issue I have with it though is how can you tell someone is on the drink if you don't see them walk or talk? So if the women was in the drink as it were Lewis must have seen her walking. That creates a problem as Hutchinson says Aman and Kelly stood at the passage for three minutes. If thats the case then Lewis couple couldn't be Kelly and Aman. How else can you tell if someone is in the drink if you see them from a distance fleetingly.

[Wickerman]

Of course, if the couple had gone inside, the court may well have been empty as Lewis reached it, but the expected thing to say in such a case would be something like "As I got there, the couple was nowhere to be seen".

That does not negate how she COULD have said and meant what you think she said and meant - its just that it does not sit well with me. I am very inclined to think that she said that the court was empty to point out that it was so as she walked up to it, as well as when she entered it.

Its all open to interpretation. That's my interpretation.

We don't know what Lewis's actual words were. She is not quoted at any length in any of those versions.
We are judging her words chosen by reporters who are paraphrasing what she said.

[Abby Normal]

A red flag that Hutchinson missed an inquest where nearly everyone was amazed it ended in one day. That's not even a yellow flag. We don't know what Abberline thought but Walter Dew writing years later said the Police were on a high in regards Mary Ann Cox statement. At last they had a witness and a description to go on. A man even seen entering her flat. Then Abberline hears at 6pm another guy has come forward and blown the whole thing sky high. Abberline may have been overly hopeful but I imagine at first he was probably cynical and frustrated. Maybe he even thought great another time waster before 'interrogating' him. Who knows?


A reluctant to come forward witness afraid of being suspected is different to a reluctant witness. Once Abberline cleared Hutchinson maybe he became quite happy to milk it.

he also heard Maxwell say she spoke with Kelly in the morning!!
but in comes hutch, the waiting and watching man he just heard from sarah lewis, and probably thought-OK this is corroborated. obviously hutch became witness numero uno to Abberline immediately.

and yes just happening to miss the inquest by a couple of hours no less is a red flag to me.

Abberline after realizing hutch was full of it was probably kicking himself he told his bosses he believed him, and was embarrassed, so never mentioned him again.