Help On Some Details

[Wickerman]

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said:

[Coroner] Could the witness, Mary Ann Cox, have come down the entry between one and half-past one o'clock without your knowledge ? - Yes, she could have done so.

Of course.
There's nothing airtight about any of these stated times.

There's nothing to say Kelly didn't fall asleep for a hour or so, till after 1:30, then get up an leave.
We can't rule anything out, and we can't expect proof for every possibility.

[DJA]

The latter part of your query may be answered by reading Barnett's police statement where he says he left her on the 30th, the second reason he gave was:
"....and her resorting to prostitution".
She was already earning her own money.
Do you seriously think a prostitute needs a reason to prostitute herself?, prostitution was all she had ever known.
.

Joseph Barnett deposed :

I lived with her in No. 13 room, at Miller's-court for eight months. I separated from her on Oct. 30.
[Coroner] Why did you leave her ? - Because she had a woman of bad character there, whom she took in out of compassion, and I objected to it. That was the only reason. I left her on the Tuesday between five and six p.m. I last saw her alive between half-past seven and a quarter to eight on Thursday night last, when I called upon her. I stayed there for a quarter of an hour.

[Wickerman]

hi wick
all it takes is for them to be off a couple minutes on there times and that would explain it.

Yep, and there's Michael's answer to his second dilemma.

[Sunny Delight]

not bad. or if aman is real and kennedy not, hutch comes back after aman is gone and is the killer. this even works if aman is not real, and mary is in her place with blotchy.

also, if hutch isn't the killer and he lied about seeing mary and aman, then mary goes out after blotchy and runs into the Britannia man (the bethnal green botherer) and hes the ripper.

There is nothing that rules Hutch out of being the killer. He places himself at the scene until 3am. It is only his own word which we havel that he left the scene. But for me he is an honest witness who came forward and told the Police what he had seen like a good citizen. Theories on him being the murderer don't stack up for me. For me Aman is the prime suspect- followed by Brittania man then Blotchy and then Hutchinson. If I can see this 130 years later I am quite sure the Police were following multiple lines of enquiry and were engaged in trying to track down each individual. Hutch as the loiterer made himself known and it seems after an interrogation with a top detective who had 85 commendations on retiring was believed. The other three it seems were never tracked.

[DJA]

Have you solved the dilemma of Cox passing Prater yet neither could confirm the other?
We are told Cox came up the passage "about 1:00", yet Prater also came back "about 1:00", yet neither saw each other.
Then Cox left again 15 minutes later - so about 1:15?, yet Prater stayed at the corner of the passage (by McCarthy's) until 1:20.
Cox didn't see Prater, and Prater didn't see Cox?

How did Cox & Prater "thread the needle"?

Find the answer to this and you might have the answer for your second dilemma.

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said:

[Coroner] Could the witness, Mary Ann Cox, have come down the entry between one and half-past one o'clock without your knowledge ? - Yes, she could have done so.

[Wickerman]

.....
This Mary going out premise thing requires at least 2 things as proof....1, that we have any evidence she left the room after 1am, and 2, that she had a reason to want to get some money at a time of night when she cannot spend it, after she has been resisting this kind of scenario for weeks prior to her murder, and with no evident inclination to do "business" in her own room in her own name ever before.

The latter part of your query may be answered by reading Barnett's police statement where he says he left her on the 30th, the second reason he gave was:
"....and her resorting to prostitution".
She was already earning her own money.
Do you seriously think a prostitute needs a reason to prostitute herself?, prostitution was all she had ever known.

As to your first point.
When you have Kennedy's sighting of Kelly "about 3:00", you dismiss it without reason.
When you have Hutchinson's sighting of Kelly about 2:00, you dismiss it without reason.
How many sighting do you want, and how many sightings are you going to dismiss, and on what basis?

Be honest Michael, no matter how many people claim they saw Kelly out after 1:00 you will dismiss them, and still maintain - "where's the evidence she was out after 1 o'clock?".

You have no intention of accepting that scenario.

[Abby Normal]

There is a slight chance that Blotchy was Hutch and not the Ripper, and that Hutch came forward after the inquest because, 1- He didn't want Mary Cox to see him. And 2- Up to his statement Blotchy was number the 1 suspect. But if Blotchy was Hutch and he invented someone in the company of Mary at a later time than Blotchy/Hutch the suspicion would obviously be on the man seen later with the victim.

hi DK
you really think that after Abberline has Blotchy on his mind as a prime suspect -a man with a carroty mustache and blotches on his face, that he wouldn't notice, if blotchy/hutch comes in right after the inquest??

[Abby Normal]

Hello Michael.

Have you solved the dilemma of Cox passing Prater yet neither could confirm the other?
We are told Cox came up the passage "about 1:00", yet Prater also came back "about 1:00", yet neither saw each other.
Then Cox left again 15 minutes later - so about 1:15?, yet Prater stayed at the corner of the passage (by McCarthy's) until 1:20.
Cox didn't see Prater, and Prater didn't see Cox?

How did Cox & Prater "thread the needle"?

Find the answer to this and you might have the answer for your second dilemma.

hi wick
all it takes is for them to be off a couple minutes on there times and that would explain it.

[Abby Normal]

It is a fairly straightforward case made extraordinarily complicated by mad hat ideas and crazy theories. Mary Kelly was a casual if not full time Prostitute. Her partner confirms that she allows Prostitutes to stay with her so he leaves meaning she has no money or many options as a female in the 1880's in Whitechapel. On the night of the murder she is soliciting- she picks up a man we call Blotchy . That earns her 6 pence we can assume. She is in arrears. There seems to be a time period unaccounted for where she may have purchased food. No matter she would still require more money for the next day. Food to buy, maybe some rent to pay off to keep McCarthy off her back. She goes back soliciting probably for the last time that night. She runs into George Hutchinson. He is a irregular client- they know each other and she propsitions him. He has no money as he is 'spent out going to Romford'. Why he was there we don't know but it's irrelevant to the case anyways. Kelly bides him good night as he is no use to her now. As he says in his statement a man who he had passed approaches Kelly. Well dressed it is unusual to see such a man in her company( I take this to mean when he told Abberline- a Prostitutes company and not Kelly per se). They go back to Millers Court and Hutchinson watches the court. Strange behaviour. Creepy bebaviour. But nonetheless he leaves at 3 and that is that as far as he is concerned. Kelly is murdered by the Ripper between 3 and her body being discovered at half 10 the next mornning. Medical evidence suggests she had been dead some hours before so we can assume betwwen 1-4:30 am on medical evidence. That leaves Astrachan man as the last person seen with the deceased and if he isn't the killer then Kelly was killed between 3 and half 4 after Hutch had left. In which case if Mrs Kennedy is real Brittania man becomes the prime suspect. Simple.

not bad. or if aman is real and kennedy not, hutch comes back after aman is gone and is the killer. this even works if aman is not real, and mary is in her place with blotchy.

also, if hutch isn't the killer and he lied about seeing mary and aman, then mary goes out after blotchy and runs into the Britannia man (the bethnal green botherer) and hes the ripper.

[MrBarnett]

A brothel wasnt under her name Gary. I know she was a brothel worker. And that she used the name Marie Jeanette. These circumstances were not the same. She was on her own. She had Joe living there until Tuesday of that same week...she is seen out on Wednesday with Daniel Barnett, and she comes home late Thursday after being out drinking not "working"...on someones nickel. There is no evidence that Mary ever brought a client into room13, only someone who entered the room with her before midnight on Thursday and was seranaded for over an hour.

She probably had or shared a room in Pennington Street, just as she did in Miller’s Court. I’m not quite sure what you mean by ‘in her name’.

My question is, would a woman with lengthy experience of entertaining clients in her room suddenly decide to start going down dark alleys with strangers at the height of the JTR scare?

[Darryl Kenyon]

There is a slight chance that Blotchy was Hutch and not the Ripper, and that Hutch came forward after the inquest because, 1- He didn't want Mary Cox to see him. And 2- Up to his statement Blotchy was number the 1 suspect. But if Blotchy was Hutch and he invented someone in the company of Mary at a later time than Blotchy/Hutch the suspicion would obviously be on the man seen later with the victim.

[Abby Normal]

So Blotchy is Hutch? Blotchy is seen with Mary over 2 hours before Hutch reports seeing her and he is spotted loitering by Sarah Lewis. It will take a far fetched imagination to even remotely link Hutchinson and Blotchy let alone come up with a scenario where Hutchinson is Blotchy and has set Mary up to be killed by a monster and a maniac whilst he keeps watch over 2 hours later after being seen with her. Madness.

bingo-and like I said Blotchy had a very distinctive look-abberline or someone would have noticed.


hutch was probably waiting outside marys waiting for blotchy to leave.

[Abby Normal]

Strongly suspect Blotchy and Hutchinson are the same person.

Setting Mary up for Jack and then keeping a watch from across the street.

nah. blotchy had a distinctive appearance-Abberline would have been all over it.

[Wickerman]

Seems odd to me that with all these late night sightings of Mary... and the missed sightings, she must have threaded the needle with her timing. Liz in in the arched passageway at the tuck shop, noting Marys room as dark and quiet when she went down the way, Mary Ann is in and out a few times after noting Marys room as quiet,.......

Hello Michael.

Have you solved the dilemma of Cox passing Prater yet neither could confirm the other?
We are told Cox came up the passage "about 1:00", yet Prater also came back "about 1:00", yet neither saw each other.
Then Cox left again 15 minutes later - so about 1:15?, yet Prater stayed at the corner of the passage (by McCarthy's) until 1:20.
Cox didn't see Prater, and Prater didn't see Cox?

How did Cox & Prater "thread the needle"?

Find the answer to this and you might have the answer for your second dilemma.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I have to say the Star is not the main reason I doubt the Kennedy tale . I just think it is very unlikely that two people - From Sam's post 194 - independently decided to head for Miller's Court to stay with family/friends at broadly similar times, reported almost identical experiences on that night, and ensconced themselves in a room directly opposite Kelly's, in which they both happened to be awake and alert at precisely the right time to hear the cry of "Murder!".
I notice in the press reports of 10 Nov [admittedly just in the papers i have seen], make no mention of Mary Cox. Yet she is a vital witness, why not? Well Sarah Lewis says - I left Mrs Keylers about 5:30 The police would not let us go before. Perhaps the police then took them to the station to make a further statement since these are the only two who saw a man in the vicinity who could be the murderer during the night. Also Sarah Lewis did not live in Miller's, she had to make her way home to Great Pearl St after a long day being cooped up in the court. After the police let the residents go they could do what they liked, IE talk to the press. But Sarah might not have even been in and around the court when the press were free to move around after the restrictions were eased, she could have been either down at the station being questioned further by Abberline or at home in Great Pearl St.
Speaking of the statements given to the police in the JTR Source Book which say's the files are held at the Mepo archives there doesn't appear to be one held by Kennedy, why? And why was she not called to the inquest? Did the police not trust her evidence?